Why Jesus is not the messiah.

[CapnAwesome]

Then again, those who have the most to lose, if he was the Messiah , wouldn't even exist if He was not . think about it.

What the fuck??? In what world does any of this make sense?

[Cyberman]

In this one:

[Cato]

It's called a faith for a reason.

Bullshit, it's called faith due to lack of reason.

[GrandizerII]

Then how can anyone say with confidence that these prophecies have been fulfilled if they're just going to be vague and ambiguous?

It's called a faith for a reason.

Do you really not see what is wrong with this?

No, I don't, but feel free to explain.

Also, isn't God supposed to be in control here? If he is sovereign, couldn't he state a prophecy clearly and ensure that it be fulfilled anyway?

Sure. Or, he could state a prophecy with some ambiguity, and ensure that those who are troubled by that believe anyway, if that's his will.

The problem with ambiguity is that it is open to infinite interpretations. And, therefore, almost anything can be applied to such verses.

Also, faith is not something to be admired. I don't know why you make it sound like it's a virtue. Faith (in the sense you speak of) is nothing but an indicator of ignorance.

[Rampant.A.I.]

[Tonus]

A. Messiah as Prophet

The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)

I hate to quibble on a seemingly minor point, but how can you be the "greatest [something] in history" yet be "second to" anything else?

[Cyberman]

Reminds me of an Olympic opening ceremony some years ago. Sports pundit David Coleman was doing the commentary and he announced that one country - I think it was China - was parading "the largest Olympic flag in the world. There's only one larger..."

[Creed of Heresy]

I addressed most of them by noting that they will be fulfilled in the second advent.

Except the source material never stated there would be a second advent. They stated that the messiah would bring about all these things in his lifetime. Jesus, supposedly, died. If you believe the resurrection thing, that means he had a second lifetime. Yet there was no mention of there being a second lifetime. You'd think that'd be a major thing for the prophecy to mention: "He'll do this stuff in his second lifetime, and in his first, he will just sow the seeds for all this." And then he floated into heaven...literally floated. Into the sky. I guess that's where heaven is. Pity the writers of the tale never foresaw the ability of humanity to use science and innovation to fly above the clouds, huh?

Whoa, where did that come from? Seems desperate to try to change the conversation to historicity of Jesus.

I'm not trying to change the conversation. I'm stating that what is known of the miracles Jesus performed are confined solely to the bible. There's no outside confirmation of these miracles that should have attracted the attention of at least one of the almost OCD-like historians. It's hard to believe he performed all this stuff when all we hear is crickets chirping from the rest of history. I'm willing to concede that the messiah could have had 'magical powers,' for lack of a better term, but if he did, there's no mention of it from anyone at the time, and was only mentioned well after the "fact." My point here is, if then the messiah was supposed to have those powers as the Rabbi said, and the only word of these abilities was written by his followers and nobody else [despite supposedly being known far and wide], do we simply just take the second-hand accounts of these abilities at their word, with no corroboration from any other source of these things that would have utterly blown the minds of anyone in those days, or hell, these days? Dude walks on water and turns it into wine and does a bunch of things by just touching them and...nobody else cares? What, was this just a common thing? Maybe so many people were claiming they could do such absurdities around that time period that it was simply a "cry wolf" effect...and if that's the case, then all that shows is that they were plagiarizing stuff that tons of other people were claiming to emphasize the supposed power of their cult-leader.

That's your shortcoming. While you can disagree with people, if you can't understand the mindset of a really big group of people, there's something wrong with you. I can understand why people might be atheist or Muslim. Politically I'm a little right of center, but I can understand the far left and far right, while disagreeing with them.

I should clarify and correct what I said. I can understand WHY. But I can't understand HOW.

[John V]

Except the source material never stated there would be a second advent.

First, note that revelation is progressive, and you're making an arbitrary cutoff at the end of the OT. Most of the details concerning the messiah are not found in the Torah, but most Jews don't say that those details are not to be found in the source material.

Second, as previously noted, the source material as you view it leads some to believe in two messiahs - one suffering, one triumphant - to reconcile the apparent difficulties between certain messianic passages. Christianity's solution is one messiah, two advents, and is not so different.

They stated that the messiah would bring about all these things in his lifetime.

Citation please?

I'm not trying to change the conversation. I'm stating that what is known of the miracles Jesus performed are confined solely to the bible.

You didn't make that complaint when you were quoting Jews who argued that the messiah wouldn't do the miraculous - only when another side was presented.

[Egyptian]

A second advent won't solve the problem of Jesus as the messiah, the NT writers still be condemned and christianity left without its basic basis (Jeus as the messiah) , as the problem began when those new testament desperate writers, not only skipped all or most ,the valid messianic prophecies but the essence of the problem began when they misused the Old testament : Dennis McKinsey discribed the problem in his Biblical Errancy Issue No. 76 :

"With the possible exception of eschatology (biblical predictions of what is to come) in no area of scripture does the Christian imagination wander more wildly and irresponsibly than in that of messianic prophecy (OT predictions of the coming Messiah). Christian apologists have diligently searched the OT for any verse, any text, any word, that could possibly be twisted, distorted, or perverted in such a manner as to link Jesus with the foretold Messiah. With what can only be described as reckless abandon, they have interpreted sizable portions of the OT for purely partisan theological purposes. Regardless of relativity, anything and everything of a positive or uplifting nature has been depicted as a type or harbinger of Jesus and everything of a negative, but equally applicable import, has been ignored or minimized. Hundreds of verses have been interpreted either literally or figuretively, as conditions dictate, with little regard for context or original intent. Except in the arena of eschatology, here, more than anywhere else, the full breadth and depth of Christian duplicity rears its ugly head. Perversion, prevarication, and pathetic prognostication are only some of the descriptive terms one could apply to their strategy of deception. "Everything in the Jewish books is perverted and distorted into meanings never intended by the writers." ("Examination of the Prophecies", The Life and Works of Paine, Vol. 9, p. 241) and "...whoever will take the trouble to read attentively, will find in all those passages where the OT is cited, only an obvious abuse of words, and the seal of falsehood on almost every page" (Voltaire on Religion by Ken Applegate, p. 147). Interestingly enough, apologists rely heavily and freely upon the very tactic--taking out of context--which they so readily attribute to their opponents. As Paine said, "The practise which the writers of the books (gospels--Ed.) employ is not more false than it is absurd. They state some trifling case of the person they call Jesus Christ, and then cut out a sentence from some passage of the OT and call it a prophecy of that case. But when the words thus cut out are restored to the places they are taken from, and read with the words before and after them, they give the lie to the NT" (The Life and Works of Paine, Vol. 9, p. 269).
also He wrote in Issue No. 97 : One of the most egregious violations of intellectual integrity by the founders of Christianity is shown by their gross distortions of the OT for purposes of indoctrination. In their never-ending quest for religious legitimacy and status, they have not hesitated to twist, distort, pervert, and concoct OT verses as expediency dictated. Here, as much as anywhere else in the Bible, the true colors of the creators of Christianity come through in all their radiant splendor. Examples of their perfidious display of propagandistic propensities are abundantly evident to anyone with a reasonably critical eye.


may be the christian members would like to show us how could the so called messianic prophecies , eg; Isaiah 7:14 ,etc.... be 1-messianic .  2- applied to Jesus ...?



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