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Death Penalty
#41
RE: Death Penalty
Because of my work for 20 years in the criminal justice system in a variety of capacities but for the majority of the time as a judge's assistant, I had a front row seat to a number of death penalty cases. My opinions are as a result of personal research and up-close personal experience. Just some things to think about:

We get it wrong 4% of the time.

True. How is this acceptable to anyone? Under what circumstances is it ever justifiable to kill the wrong person? And these statistics only include defendants who have been exonerated through DNA evidence. They don't include cases where DNA evidence is unavailable. Think DNA is available in every case? Think again.

I often hear it said that people support the death penalty in cases where there is 100% certainty that they have the right defendant. There is almost never a case where there is 100% certainty. I've seen many cases (not all death penalty) where an eyewitness pointed at the wrong person as the perpetrator. I've seen cases where people have confessed to crimes they didn't commit. This stuff happens.

And if you think about it, all you're saying is that the clever ones who manage to leave doubt in the minds of jurors get to live, and the stupid ones who were dumb enough to leave DNA evidence around, etc., are the ones who die. How is that a fair or equitable system?

The death penalty acts as a deterrent to others who may be thinking of committing a crime.

False. Well, at least in my experience, it's false. I don't know how anyone would prove this one way or the other. But I can tell you this: In all the years I did this work, I never heard a defendant say, "Well, I thought about killing him, but then it occurred to me that if I got caught, they might put me to death in 20 years or so. So I just punched him in the nose, instead." Nope, never heard that.

The death penalty is cheaper than housing a defendant for his entire life.

False. I never did a death penalty case that cost less than two million dollars, and that was just for the case at the trial court level. Remember, death cases are subjected to mandatory appellate review. At every stage, the defendant is appointed counsel and the case is reviewed -- and reviewed again. By the way, were you aware that when a death penalty case is reviewed by the appellate courts, it is only reviewed to determine if the trial court judge correctly applied the law to the facts as they were established at the trial court level? The facts as they are established are never again reviewed, and in the absence of major, compelling new evidence, they will stand -- even if they are wrong. This is how wrongful convictions -- and executions -- happen. Example: An eyewitness incorrectly identifies someone as the perpetrator of the crime. There is no DNA evidence to show otherwise. Based on (erroneous) testimony of the eyewitness, the defendant is factually established to be the killer. Nothing about the appellate process is designed to save him.

Here are some other things you may not know about death cases and how much they cost:

The instant a case is declared by the prosecutor to be a death penalty case, the defendant is appointed death-qualified attorneys. These guys are expensive. I never did a death penalty case where the defendant had fewer than three attorneys.

Death penalty cases are done in two stages: The guilt phase, and the penalty phase. These trials often last for months. Last death penalty case I did, we spent four months trying it in a neighboring county (too sensationalized in our home county), went through 1,500 prospective jurors to pick a jury of 18 (12 regular jurors and 6 alternates, because you don't want to get through 3 months of a 4-month trial and have to start over because you didn't pick enough alternate jurors). Jurors must also be death-qualified, meaning they have no philosophical difficulty in imposing the death penalty if they determine the case warrants it. I, for example, would not be allowed to sit as a juror on a death case because I am opposed to the death penalty.

NONE of this accounts for the time spent on these cases prior to the trial. Most death penalty cases take a minimum of 2 years to get to trial, and every one of those pretrial hearings costs money.

Average cost of a death penalty case is roughly 70% more than an LWOP (Life Without Parole) case.

The death penalty is easy to impose.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Every time someone says to me they could push the needle themselves with no problem, I understand they are only telling me they've never actually sat on a death case. One of the cases I did was one of those extremely rare cases where there was ZERO doubt of the defendant's guilt. The prosecution had a confession, DNA evidence and knowledge of the crime that only the defendant would know (location of buried bodies, etc.). The jury deliberated for FOUR DAYS in the guilt phase of that trial. When they rendered their verdict, I understood before I even saw it that I would be reading out a death verdict -- because every single juror was in tears and could not look at the defendant. Some jurors never get over such a traumatic experience.

Now, suppose you were a juror on such a case -- and later learned you had WRONGFULLY convicted a defendant who was then executed?

Death penalty cases affect more people by far than just the defendant and his family members. They can have lasting detrimental effects on every person who is involved in them. One of the bravest things I ever witnessed was the family of one victim who had died a truly horrible death at the hands of her killer. They were anti-death penalty BEFORE the loss of their loved one -- and they remained anti-death penalty after. They refused to forfeit their humanity even in the face of their excruciating loss. I still think about them and have enormous admiration for them.

Housing defendants for a lifetime gives them a lovely life, while killing them is justice.

False. State prisons are not pleasant places where everyone is on vacation. We sent our death-convicted defendants to either San Quentin or Pelican Bay. Both places are grim. If housed at Pelican Bay, a super-max, life is particularly dreary. Pelican Bay is situated in one of the most beautiful spots I've ever seen, nestled within sight of both the beach and a gorgeous redwood forest. Inmates can see these breathtaking landscapes during their one hour of exercise per day -- but will never experience it up close and personal again. Rather ingeniously cruel, in my opinion.

Like I said, just some food for thought.
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#42
RE: Death Penalty
(May 24, 2014 at 4:50 pm)Starvald Demelain Wrote: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/05/...ric-chair/

Quote:Republican Gov. Bill Haslam signed a bill into law Thursday allowing the state to electrocute death row inmates in the event prisons are unable to obtain the drugs, which have become more and more scarce following a European-led boycott of drug sales for executions.

Tennessee is the first state to enact a law to reintroduce the electric chair without giving prisoners an option, said Richard Dieter, executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center, a Washington, D.C.-based nonprofit organization that opposes executions and tracks the issue.

I disagree with the death penalty in the first place, it's my opinion that lex talionis solves nothing, but this is just... sickening.

Opinions?

My very humble thoughts on the matter.....
1. The death penalty for named offenses is the law. To abolish the death penalty, the law must be changed. Those who disagree with the current law must work to change it.
2. The method of execution of the condemned should be first and foremost, effective. "Cruel and unusual" must be defined in law. Today, it is not. This leaves the way open for the ACLU to whine and complain most vociferously regardless of method used.
3. One of the mail problems with the death penalty in the US is the inordinate and ridiculous amount of time that passes between the sentencing and the carrying out of the sentence. Many of the condemned wait 10 years or more for their date "with the executioner". To be sure, memories of the event that deserved the penalty are dim by that time to be sure.
4. Personally, I do not disagree with the death penalty; I disagree most violently with the time it takes to complete the process.

Here's a potential fix.... (IMHO).

Each verdict of death by execution will be review within 24 hours by a panel of three federal judges. The judges will be required to serve this function if selected. If they have a problem with this, they may not serve as a federal judge.
These judges will be selected by a "random drawing" process after names have been submitted by the Supreme Court (27 names will be submitted).
The three judges will serve for a period of exactly 24 months. If a case review is in process at the time their term expires, they will complete the case review during a term extension that will last a maximum of 15 calendar days....no longer.
The next three judges will be selected using the same process.
Case reviews will be completed within 15 calendar days.
All three judges must agree with the sentencing of the court. If any of them disagree, the case will be immediately returned to the court that passed sentence for appeal.
If all three judges agree with the court's verdict, then the sentence of execution of the condemned will take place within 48 hours of the of the verdict.
Methods of execution: firing squad, electrocution, hanging, drugs. The victim's survivors will select the method of execution. If they cannot or will not name it, the judge of the original sentencing court will select the method.

Well..................??
People don't go to heaven when they die; they're taken to a special room and burned.
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#43
RE: Death Penalty
Good idea - let's have a FISA court of executions. Nothing can go wrong with a rubber stamp, eh?

Because swamping a court will never give a perverse incentive to cut corners...

Oh, what's that? We executed an innocent man because prosecutors withheld evidence and we have no history of punishing such, just like we overwhelmingly let the police get away with crimes no citizen would get a pass on?

Oh well...
Slave to the Patriarchy no more
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#44
RE: Death Penalty
Capital Punishment Struck Down in California

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/16...92448.html

Quote:"California's death penalty system is so plagued by inordinate and unpredictable delay that the death sentence is actually carried out against only a trivial few of those sentenced to death," Carney writes. "For all practical purposes then, a sentence of death in California is a sentence of life imprisonment with the remote possibility of death -- a sentence no rational legislature or jury could ever impose."
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#45
RE: Death Penalty
Average cost to house an inmate for one year $29,000 (higher for death row inmates)

Average prison guard salary per year $42,000 (higher for death row guards)

State paid annual attorney fees for defense per inmate $76,000

One .357 Mag. round $0.48

Thinking
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#46
RE: Death Penalty
Too bad our justice system isn't perfect, eh?

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/louisiana-de...-30-years/

Quote:The state's motion to vacate Ford's conviction was based on new information that corroborated his claim that he was not present or involved in the crime.

Prosecutors would not detail the new evidence, saying it could jeopardize their future case against the actual killer, reports WAFB.
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#47
RE: Death Penalty
(July 16, 2014 at 3:49 pm)ShaMan Wrote: Average cost to house an inmate for one year $29,000 (higher for death row inmates)

Average prison guard salary per year $42,000 (higher for death row guards)

State paid annual attorney fees for defense per inmate $76,000

One .357 Mag. round $0.48

Thinking
Getting an innocent person to confess: Priceless.

The relative ease with which a person can be made to confess, and the pressure that can be put on police departments to solve particularly horrible crimes can lead to an apparently air-tight case against an innocent person. Richard Jewell comes to mind as the case of a person who took heroic action and wound up being treated as a villain instead.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."

-Stephen Jay Gould
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#48
RE: Death Penalty
I know this is an old thread but I'll give my opinion on the death penalty since it looks like some members were on fire discussing it.

I'm against it, because:

1 - No evidence that it deters or reduces crime rates, so it's useless from a criminal perspective since it doesn't fulfill the reduction of crime feature of criminal law

2 - It costs more than like in jail if we're talking about a first world country. And before you come with the argument of 'we could just lower the cost' make sure you present a proposal saying where and how much your state should reduce. Of course in China and North Korea it must not be cheap, but I don't want to live in a country like those

3 - The death penalty gives power to the state, it should be banned simply to ensure the state doesn't remember to use it one day as a weapon of repression and persecution, it's just a safety measure

4 - Innocent people get sentenced

5 - Moreover, we could say a person being sentenced or not to death can depend on random factors such as the defense lawyer being good or the accusation being bad, or even the judge's predisposition, it is not reliable and certain

6 - It violates basic human rights (right to live), if murder is a crime the state shouldn't be doing, the death penalty equals murder only being done by public power instead of being committed by individuals. It's unethical

7 - Before anyone dares using the argument of 'think it was your relative', think twice because it is an appeal to emotion fallacy. B sides, even if it isn't, that argument is wrong and frustrating by nature since the victim's family doesn't get to decide anything on the sentence, the criminal system is there for society, not to compensate the victim, after all the crime has been committed and there's no way to go back in time. Even if someone murdered my relatives, I'd say the following - Yes I'd want the person dead, however that's a thirst for revenge, it's not rational at all, and if that happened, I'd kill the person myself and assume the guilt for my crime, it's honest and I would refuse to ask the system to fulfill my revenge needs on the name of pseudo-justice. It is a frustrating fallacy to think the sentence is to avenge or make justice for the victim - It isn't, courts are impartial by nature and don't give a shit about the victim's wishes, if the victim wants a 40 year sentence but the judge thinks 20 years is more useful for society, then 20 years it is
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#49
RE: Death Penalty
I am against the death penalty, but if I were for it, I probably wouldn't care about "humane" ways to kill them (well within reason). In quotations since it's been observed that some of the techniques that were supposed to be gentile turned out to be more painful than anticipated.

I also don't believe we should have people allowed to view the executions. That's just revolting to me. It's something I didn't like when I studied in the States to see Americans watching Sadaam's execution.
But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin.
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#50
RE: Death Penalty
I don't know, I'm also against the death penalty...but if we're going to go through with it..hiding it behind a black curtain doesn't sound like a very good idea.

I mean, you watch the news polaris..you've seen what we (as in the state) do when we think that no eyes are upon us, eh? IMO, shit probably ought to be on PBS. At least then we'd have a very specific idea of what we're talking about when we say we're for it or against it. You want me to hit somebody over the head with a brick? Fine, but you have to watch me do it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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