New Athiest Needs Help

[Lek]

There's no scientific answer to the question.

[OhWord]

There's no scientific answer to the question.

There's no 'definite' answer to the question, but there are certaintily scientific hypothesis that hold more weight than others. I just started reading A Universe from Nothing by Dr Krauss (thanks, ThePinisir!), but for right now I'll quote Wyrd of Gawd

The problem is that it's almost impossible to to imagine what true "Nothing" is and what its properties are. That's because we live in a sea of "Something". However, it should be obvious that "Nothing" really exists and that it is the source of Everything. We should know that because the visible building block of the Universe is hydrogen, which evolves from "Nothing". Once "Nothing" creates hydrogen all things become possible. The hydrogen clumps together into giant balls and then ignites in a nuclear reaction to form stars, which create the heavy elements and real material.

We may not have the definite answer, but to assume "God did it!" is the most dishonest answer there is for this question. The truth is these 3 words, that most Christians hate "We Don't Know" and that's fine.

[Losty]

I read this I know it's Bull But Could you refute it?
Thanks.

If you know science there is no such thing as infinite... If I have an infinite number of Dollars and I subtract 5 is there still an inifite amount or is it infinite minus 5?

Astronomers and Cosmologists agree that the universe has a beginning and is not infinite in size.. As Aristotle said the infinite is potentialized never actualized

So since we have established that there is no such thing as infinite that means the universe had a beginning there are 4 logical answers for the beginning of the universe seen and unseen;

1) the universe was created via nothing
2) the universe created itself
3) the universe was created by something which was also created
4) the universe was created by something UNCREATED

The universe cannot be created via nothing because the definition of nothing means zip zero not an atom nothing.. Your mother cannot give birth to herself... Number 3 if the universe was created by something which was created than you are implying the universe seen and unseen has an infinite past and a logical fallacy and if you believe that you ignore science... That would mean the created creator would have had a created creator which would have had a created creator and so on... We know that infinite is an impossibility so there would have had to be an Originator... The One who begets not nor is begotten

Wouldn't the same logic that tells us the universe began and cannot be infinite also tell us that an infinite creator (or uncreated creator) is not possible?
You can't say the universe must have a start point or cause, and then turn around and say there could be some sort of creator that exists and has always existed outside of space and time. If an uncreated creator were possible, wouldn't an uncreated infinite universe be just as possible?

[Lek]

There's no scientific answer to the question.

There's no 'definite' answer to the question, but there are certaintily scientific hypothesis that hold more weight than others. I just started reading A Universe from Nothing by Dr Krauss (thanks, ThePinisir!), but for right now I'll quote Wyrd of Gawd

The problem is that it's almost impossible to to imagine what true "Nothing" is and what its properties are. That's because we live in a sea of "Something". However, it should be obvious that "Nothing" really exists and that it is the source of Everything. We should know that because the visible building block of the Universe is hydrogen, which evolves from "Nothing". Once "Nothing" creates hydrogen all things become possible. The hydrogen clumps together into giant balls and then ignites in a nuclear reaction to form stars, which create the heavy elements and real material.

We may not have the definite answer, but to assume "God did it!" is the most dishonest answer there is for this question. The truth is these 3 words, that most Christians hate "We Don't Know" and that's fine.

I don't hate those three words at all. Hypotheses are just that. You said in your introduction that science explains our origins. Does it?

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Wouldn't the same logic that tells us the universe began and cannot be infinite also tell us that an infinite creator (or uncreated creator) is not possible?
You can't say the universe must have a start point or cause, and then turn around and say there could be some sort of creator that exists and has always existed outside of space and time. If an uncreated creator were possible, wouldn't an uncreated infinite universe be just as possible?

Yes. But it would have a supernatural explanation, not a natural one.

[Jackalope]

If you know science there is no such thing as infinite... If I have an infinite number of Dollars and I subtract 5 is there still an inifite amount or is it infinite minus 5?

How many points in a line between your eye and your finger?

Zero. Ow!

[Losty]

Wouldn't the same logic that tells us the universe began and cannot be infinite also tell us that an infinite creator (or uncreated creator) is not possible?
You can't say the universe must have a start point or cause, and then turn around and say there could be some sort of creator that exists and has always existed outside of space and time. If an uncreated creator were possible, wouldn't an uncreated infinite universe be just as possible?

Yes. But it would have a supernatural explanation, not a natural one.

Why does that matter? And how do you know?

[GrandizerII]

Wouldn't the same logic that tells us the universe began and cannot be infinite also tell us that an infinite creator (or uncreated creator) is not possible?
You can't say the universe must have a start point or cause, and then turn around and say there could be some sort of creator that exists and has always existed outside of space and time. If an uncreated creator were possible, wouldn't an uncreated infinite universe be just as possible?

Yes. But it would have a supernatural explanation, not a natural one.

Feel free to call it "supernatural" all you want. The point was that if an uncreated God is possible, then so should an uncreated universe.

[Mystical]

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OP, allow me to introduce you to the most powerful question we have in refuting theists: How do you know?

How does he know the universe could not have come from nothing? How does he know that there couldn't be an infinite chain of creators, and so on? Hell, more importantly, how does he know he's encompassed every possible solution to this issue?

Knowledge is demonstrated and not just asserted, so he's going to need to bring some evidence to bear, which he doesn't have. Nobody does, but the difference is that as an atheist I'm more comfortable just leaving that question at the "I don't know" stage and letting the evidence fall where it may. If someone else wants to assert things about something they can't possibly know about, then they'd better get all their shit together before they start spouting off assertions.

How does he know? The answer is that he doesn't, and his shell game relies upon you not figuring that out to work. Don't fall prey to the false dichotomy he's trying to introduce.

Ignore what I said! ^^^^^THIS^^^^^

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[Esquilax]

Mmhm. That mans mind makes me want to lick things.

Don't get saucy in the debate threads hon, it's distracting!

Heh, and Losty already asked the question I was gonna ask Lek, so...

[Losty]

Mmhm. That mans mind makes me want to lick things.

Don't get saucy in the debate threads hon, it's distracting!

Heh, and Losty already asked the question I was gonna ask Lek, so...

But...but...saucy Luckie is my favorite style of Luckie


Haha you're a good teacher and I was paying attention :p