Evidence of the Bible's Validity

[max-greece]

Some people think that the numbers mean something special.

And a fuck load more don't.

We don't need to be so clever to debunk this crap, but what does that tell us about you?

Maybe a little more humility is in order - I thought Christians were supposed to be good at that. Another myth no doubt.

[Cato]

Debunk this, if you're so clever:
There are thousands of envelopes in a room. They all contain a magic spell written on a piece of paper. Inside one of them are the magic words "Klatu Barada Nikto" and a check for $1,000,000.00. Now, that envelope is significant not because of the magic spell. Regardless of whether or not you believe in magic, the fact is that if you find the one with those specific words you will find the one with the check.

Here's your problem. You are assuming the existence of the $1,000,000. In your case you can't even demonstrate the existence of one dollar. All we get from you are the incantations. That's it.

[Brian37]

I have something I wish to discuss with an atheist or atheists. If any of them would take the time to hear me on this thread I would be very grateful. I have some information that I consider hardcore evidence, not proof though, of the validity of the Bible. I'm not trying to evangelize anyone here, I just would like to share some facts that I have accumulated from several sources.

I ask that you remain open minded and logical, and that you do not stray off topic. Also, don't assume that you have heard all this before, because odds are good that you haven't. People don't usually defend their views religion in the way I am about to. I'm not going to ask you to take my word for any of this. I will provide verification of my facts. Here goes:

POINT 1#: The Bible contains various prophecies. If a sufficient number of these prophecies is true, than it is very likely that these prophecies are what they claim to be. Some kind of supernatural or divine revelation. Either that or they are a highly unlikely and EXTREMELY lucky guess. Can we agree on this first point?

Show me predictions of Haley's Comet in it. Show me predictions of the 1999 World Series. Show me words in it like "entropy" and "DNA". Show me the verse that I Brian will be born in 1966.

There is absolutely not one verse in that comic book that makes predictions about the future anymore than a Ouija Board you purchase at Toys R Us.

Don't feel bad, the Koran can't do it and the Torah And Talmud nor Rig Vedas make predictions either. And no, Joseph Smith did not find golden tablets signifying the lost tribes of Israel that started Mormonism either.

The bible, as with all holy books are as predictive about the future in the same way calling a psychic hot line and wasting your money on it is a good way to guide your life.

[Esquilax]

Sam thing applies here. Some people think that the numbers mean something special. Regardless of whether or not they do, they are still the numbers for which we are looking. It has nothing to do with their mystical meaning or anything like that.

Yes, that's the point: you are looking for those numbers, and so you've reverse engineered a scenario that will lead you to those numbers based on arbitrary rules. The numbers have significance; the method by which you came to derive them from this particular source does not, beyond that you've proposed a method to drive to that certain conclusion. That's leading the evidence.

And I say "evidence" in the loosest possible sense, here.

[FreeTony]

If there was anything to this prophesy shit, every Hedge Fund, Betting firm, Bank etc would recruit theologians, rather than gifted graduate mathematicians.

[JesusHChrist]

If there was anything to this prophesy shit, every Hedge Fund, Betting firm, Bank etc would recruit theologians, rather than gifted graduate mathematicians.

Ain't that the truth. Now, many Wall Street firms are hiring Physics PhDs rather than Finance PhDs because the math required is rather tough, particularly as it relates to arbitrage, options and other derivatives.

And Finance PhDs are not slouches in the math department.

[Lemonvariable72]

You guys are aware that in practice the monarch holds no power at all right? I'd also like to point out that charles is actually ineligible for the throne.

That's why I said 'head of state', which the queen is under the the standard parliamentary system. And yes I understand that she has very limited powers and for all intents and purposes is a figurehead.

Why is Charles not in line for the throne?

Because he married a divorced woman. Iirc that makes ineligible to be the head of the Anglican church, and if he can't head of the church he can't be king. That's why they make a fuss of William even though most of the royal family manages to stay out of the public eye.

[ThePinsir]

If someone found bible code saying things like:

- Jesus is a cunt
- Hail Satan
- Darwin is God
- Neitzche FTW
- Fuck God Titty Sprinklies

Would you interpret them as miraculous, or write them off as coincidence, and a result of post hoc number crunching and data mining??

[ThomM]

I have something I wish to discuss with an atheist or atheists. If any of them would take the time to hear me on this thread I would be very grateful. I have some information that I consider hardcore evidence, not proof though, of the validity of the Bible. I'm not trying to evangelize anyone here, I just would like to share some facts that I have accumulated from several sources.

I ask that you remain open minded and logical, and that you do not stray off topic. Also, don't assume that you have heard all this before, because odds are good that you haven't. People don't usually defend their views religion in the way I am about to. I'm not going to ask you to take my word for any of this. I will provide verification of my facts. Here goes:

POINT 1#: The Bible contains various prophecies. If a sufficient number of these prophecies is true, than it is very likely that these prophecies are what they claim to be. Some kind of supernatural or divine revelation. Either that or they are a highly unlikely and EXTREMELY lucky guess. Can we agree on this first point?

First - There is NO WAY to determine if the so called Prophecies were written before - or after the event they portend in most cases

Second - Xtians like to ignore the prophecies of the messiah in the Old Testament - claiming they are covered by a NEW COVENANT - rather than admit they are failed prophecies

Third - How will you compare the percentage of so called "true" prophecies to simply "chance".

What do you consider a prophecy - example - is the nonsense of genesis considered a prophecy or simply a bunch of Fairy tales?

---

This one is kinda complicated, so here goes:

The Book of Revelation was written around the year 95 A.D. You can read up on that HERE.

In Revelation 17 an angel is explaining the vision of John. He speaks about seven hills, saying "They are seven Kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while." This verse is translated various ways, all to the effect that the 7th king must reign for a short time.

So he's saying that there are seven kings that all have something in common, that make them all part of this set of seven. It then says that the beast is the eighth and is of the seven. So the antichrist shares this same commonality with the seven kings. It is widely accepted that the antichrist is likely to be descended from the Romans, specifically the Holy Roman Empire. Here is a big reason why:

There have been exactly seven emperors of the Holy Roman Empire with the name "Charles" and you can read a complete list HERE. You will notice that the 7th Charles reigned for only about 3 years. The logical next step in following this lead is to look for an eighth ruler of the HRE named Charles. Sure enough, there is an heir to the throne of the United Kingdom (which is descended, of course, from the HRE) who is named Charles. The current Prince of Wales. He is set to become King of Great Britain after the current monarch.

Now, let's take a look at more of the prophecy that focuses on the identity of the antichrist. Revelation 13 contains one of the most famous passages in the Bible: "Here is the wisdom: let him who has understanding calculate the number of beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is 666." Virtually everyone knows of this piece of scripture. Many people have tried to calculate the number of the beast using various number systems. For example, increments of 6. A = 6, B = 12, etc.

There is only one system that actually makes sense here, the system of hebrew gematria. This is the system with which John would have been familiar. In hebrew, there are no numerical digits. Instead they use hebrew letters as numbers. Aleph, the first letter, is 1. Bet, the second, is 2, and so on. Once you reach the 10th letter, you start counting by tens. The 11th letter is 20, the 12th letter is 30, etc. When you reach 100, you count by hundreds. There are 22 letters in the hebrew alephbet. This means that the highest number is 400. This chart shows it all (hebrew is written right to left):



We can apply this same system to english letters as well. Note that we must stop at 400 or else we wouldn't be using the hebrew system, thus the last for letters of the english alphabet must be mapped to 0:

A = 1
B = 2
C = 3
D = 4
E = 5
F = 6
G = 7
H = 8
I = 9
J = 10
K = 20
L = 30
M = 40
N = 50
O = 60
P = 70
Q = 80
R = 90
S = 100
T = 200
U = 300
V = 400
W = 0
X = 0
Y = 0
Z = 0

The official title of the man in question is "Charles, Prince of Wales" or as some call him "Prince Charles of Wales." Either way, the following still applies:

C = 3
H = 8
A = 1
R = 90
L = 30
E = 5
S = 100

P = 70
R = 90
I = 9
N = 50
C = 3
E = 5

O = 60
F = 6

W = 0
A = 1
L = 30
E = 5
S = 100

Add them together yourself if you like. Your result will be 666. This could be dismissed as a coincidence. But that explanation becomes less likely when you consider the following:

The name of the man in question in hebrew letters adds up to 666 as well. These two languages are important for this reason. If the Prince of Wales is the man spoken of in Revelation, then his name should add up to 666 in his native language (english in this case), as this is his given name. It should also add up in hebrew, as this is the language of the people to whom God was giving this prophecy. I won't go into it here, but the name also adds up to 666 in Greek, which was the trade language of John's day.

So, his name matches the other 7 kings (Charles)
His name adds up to 666 in English, Hebrew and Greek
The name "Charles" means "Manly" ("It is the number of a MAN")

What are your thoughts thus far? I am completely open for alternative explanation.

If the Bible is supposed to be the inerrant inspired word of a god - then ALL of the prophecies in the bible - should be specific and true - or the bible is NOT what is claimed.

However - when you say - there is ONLY ONE system that actually makes sense here - YOU have not established that to be true - is that only one system makes it look true while others do the opposite?

The onus is on you to provide the proof that this is the only system that makes sense - and YOU have not done that

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Numerology. LOL.

Not the same thing. This is not about finding the meaning in the numbers of certain words and names, simply finding the numbers themselves. Not going into the fact the number means anything in particular other than that it was predicted.

Sorry - but YOU are using a single prophecy as a basis for your claim

The first thing you need to do is identify ALL the prophecies in the bible - and list them - as well as the number you claim are TRUE.

A single prophecy can simply be chance and is of no use in your quest

---

Anyone care to provide a logical counterpoint, or are you just going to try hard to be clever and use curse words in place of reason?

Reason says that using a single example from the bible - means nothing.

Do you have another 100 that meet the same criteria?

I can probably find ONE prophecy in every Religious Tome that actually came true - and you will argue that this is not a sufficient sample - to use against that. So why should I consider a hand picked "prediction" from the bible - as representative of ALL the prophecies.

And needing to use another "questionable" study - like numerology or astrology or voodoo- fails to help your cause because the methods themselves have NOT been established to be better than chance at prediction .

I have a suggestion - WHY not use the bible itself to prove the bible
In the Bible - there is a method to determine if a god is real - in the Old Testament - It is simple and direct
The god must light the fire under an animal prepared for cooking upon request
If the fire doesn't light - the god is false.

I have never had a god start the fire - no matter what type of meat!

[Ravenshire]

[quote='GalacticBusDriver' pid='682387' dateline='1402026862']

And yet, you present us with a name (not really, but we'll run with that) that "adds up" to a number with very specific meaning in most christer beliefs.

Numerology, plain and simple.

Nope, not numerology. It's not some mystical meaning to this number. It's the fact that it was predicted that we are concerned with.

Yep. You might claim the number has no "mystical" meaning, but outside of ancient myth, it has none. Besides, you're claiming that a name adds up to 666. "Prince of Wales" is a title, not part of his name.

If I say that a short man with black hair and a mustache in a red car is going to drive up to you and ask for directions at exactly 7:32 tomorrow evening, that would make that event significant simply because it was foretold, not because of what it is.

If you could provide an ancient prophecy that detailed, that actually, undeniably, came true, I'd consider it's relevancy. Since they are all terribly vague and open to interpretation, not so much.

BTW, Congratulations on quitting smoking.

Thanks for that. It sure weren't easy!