The Baha'i Faith

[Marsellus Wallace]

I don't believe that you have to be a Christian to be near to God either, for the same reasons. To me, nearness to God is the healthiest option.

to madness .

[zanOTK]

I don't believe that you have to be a Christian to be near to God either, for the same reasons. To me, nearness to God is the healthiest option.

So, are you a Christian, then? Since you're likening your belief that you do not have to be a Christian to be near to God to my belief that you don't have to be a Baha'i to be near to God, I assumed that you are.

[fr0d0]

Yes I am a Christian

[zanOTK]

Yes I am a Christian

Okay, just curious.

[Mudhammam]

Hey zan, thanks for the thread. So my questions are basically...

What does someone of your faith do in practice? Are there rituals, meditations, prayers, etc.? And if so, how are those to be performed? Is there a distinction between say, secluding one's self from the world to contemplate mankind's relationship to the individual and what your faith advocates?

Why any faith at all? If you are inspired by a person's moral teachings, and clearly there is something to be said about the "Oneness" of humanity, as you put it, why not pursue that line of reasoning without adopting the baggage that typically comes along with implementing rituals and ill-conceived and unfounded metaphysics about the Cosmos? Why call the unknown 'essence' of 'objective reality' god? Why not just call it unknown and carry on as if such a question couldn't really matter less since--for all purposes practical to our existence now, here on earth, it doesn't? There are a lot of individuals I am inspired by--from Gentle Jesus to Richard Dawkins--but it seems strange to me to devote myself to one person to the extent that you would call it a religious or faith commitment; what compels you to make that leap?

How can you say that all Gods were originally revealed to mankind (which you have no evidence for) in a cohesive manner, and only because of man's fallibility did these various gods become the distinct and separate identities they are today? If you read any of the holy books, there are vast amounts of differences...and if you're going to say, "Yes, but that's not how those were originally," shouldn't you have some reason other than a need to justify a doctrine to back that up?

I guess those are my initial questions. I'm sure I'll have more as we continue.

[Muslim Atheism]

So, the core values.

Oneness of God:
We believe that there is only one God, Who is Unknowable in Essence, Imperishable, Uncreated, the Origin of Existence, and on it goes. We believe that He (we use the English pronoun He as a default, not because we believe God is male) created this world (but not in the sense that Christians believe He created the world), and that the purpose of creation is to develop perfections and to grow to know and love our Creator.

Oneness of Humanity:
We believe that humanity is one, that we are all equal regardless of race, gender, religion (or lack thereof), nationality, caste, or social class. One of the main focuses, and something that we actively strive for in the communities we reside in, is the elimination of all forms of prejudice.

Oneness of Religion:
We believe all religions (or at the very least the prophetic religions) were given to humanity by the same God, and that they all originally taught basically the same things about God. The differences arose due to the believers distorting the teachings of God's Messengers as time passed.
Part of this belief in the oneness of religion is the belief in progressive revelation. In simplified form, progressive revelation goes like this:
Moses taught some stuff, and Jesus repeated some of it. But Jesus also taught some more stuff. Then Muhammad repeated some of Jesus's stuff, but He also taught some more stuff. Then the Bab repeated some of Muhammad's stuff, and taught some more stuff. Then Baha'u'llah repeated some of the Bab's stuff, and taught some more stuff. And this list of "more stuff" gets larger with each new revelation. It's kind of like our species has been going through school, and each new revelation is a grade.

As for unity in diversity, that's a pretty simple one. We can all just get along, even though we all disagree. Of course, there's a lot more on that than what I said. But I'm tired. Gimme a break, lol.

Thank you. . . can I summarize all this as "Oneness" ?

ie. as the main objective of Baha'i Faith. . . main theme

What is the self discovery system for reaching this Oneness ?

[zanOTK]

Hey zan, thanks for the thread. So my questions are basically...

What does someone of your faith do in practice? Are there rituals, meditations, prayers, etc.? And if so, how are those to be performed? Is there a distinction between say, secluding one's self from the world to contemplate mankind's relationship to the individual and what your faith advocates?

What do we practice? If I understand the question correctly (I may be confused. This is a normal state of mind for me at any moment before 0800 hours), we practice service. Service to the Faith, service to our community, service to mankind as a whole when possible. Service is such a big deal for us that it is considered identical with the worship of God.

Our rituals, meditations, and prayers? Well, we're not really ritual heavy. Our personal daily practice (ooooh, was this what you were asking?) is just at least one prayer in the morning accompanied by at least one reading from the Writings, a daily recitation of Allah'u'Abha 95 times (that would be our meditation), at least one of the three Obligatory Prayers (there's a short one, that is to be said at noon, a long one, that can be said at any point in a 24 hour period, and a medium length one to be said three times a day, morning, noon, and evening. We get to choose which we use), and at least one prayer and reading from the Writings in the evening. As a community, we have a gathering every 19 days called a Feast (and yes, in case you're wondering, there is food), we have several Holy Days, and we'll often gather for devotional and prayer meetings. At all of these prayers are said and the Writings read. Um. Ritual, ritual. Well, there's the wedding ceremony, which is pretty simple. All that's required is a) permission of both sets of parents, b) witness appointed by LSA (Local Spiritual Assembly), and c) the couple says the wedding vow: "We will all, verily, abide by the Will of God." There's also the burial, which is a little more complex. We cannot be cremated, frozen, launched into space (I've considered it in the past), or anything like that. We must be buried, preferably without being embalmed. Donating our organs for medical use is encouraged. Um, what else. Oh yes, the body should be wrapped in either clean silk or clean cotton. There is also a prayer for the dead said during funerals, which is the only congregational prayer in the Baha'i Faith.

I think that's it for rituals and such.

As for the difference between secluding yourself from the rest of mankind and contemplating the individual's relationship with humanity and what we advocate: Big difference. For one, we're not allowed to seclude ourselves from the world. We must be out and about serving, not hidden up in some monastery somewhere. So yeah. There's a difference.

Why any faith at all? If you are inspired by a person's moral teachings, and clearly there is something to be said about the "Oneness" of humanity, as you put it, why not pursue that line of reasoning without adopting the baggage that typically comes along with implementing rituals and ill-conceived and unfounded metaphysics about the Cosmos? Why call the unknown 'essence' of 'objective reality' god? Why not just call it unknown and carry on as if such a question couldn't really matter less since--for all purposes practical to our existence now, here on earth, it doesn't? There are a lot of individuals I am inspired by--from Gentle Jesus to Richard Dawkins--but it seems strange to me to devote myself to one person to the extent that you would call it a religious or faith commitment; what compels you to make that leap?

As I told the others, because I feel it is true. Baha'u'llah's teachings aren't just about morality, although many of them are, or social change, although many of them are. It's a way of life, a way of belief, that just makes sense to me.

As for why we use the word "God." Well, I guess because that's what Baha'u'llah used? And because it's the closest concept to what we believe about God.
And whether the question matters or not... It does to me. It affects how I live my life, and it affects what I think will happen after I die.

How can you say that all Gods were originally revealed to mankind (which you have no evidence for) in a cohesive manner, and only because of man's fallibility did these various gods become the distinct and separate identities they are today? If you read any of the holy books, there are vast amounts of differences...and if you're going to say, "Yes, but that's not how those were originally," shouldn't you have some reason other than a need to justify a doctrine to back that up?

I guess those are my initial questions. I'm sure I'll have more as we continue.

"If you read any of the holy books..." LOL! I'm sorry, I just find that amusing. I've read -most- of the Holy Books that are readily available to me. And while I do see some surface differences, the underlying reality seems pretty much the same to me. I started figuring that out even before I left Christianity.

As for "all Gods were originally revealed to mankind", that sentence makes it appear that you didn't understand my original statement about the Baha'i beliefs regarding God and past religions. So, I'll repeat, and try to be clearer this time (since I'm pretty sure it was an error on my part): Baha'is don't believe in "Gods" but One God. We believe that in every religion God has revealed Himself in a way that was suitable for that time and that place. So, if God appears to be one way in one religion, and another in a different religion, it is because God revealed Himself in a way that those people could grasp. These differences are then exaggerated by later errors made by believers in that religion, and they continue to be exaggerated over time.

I think I managed to answer your questions? If I wasn't clear somewhere, or didn't seem to really answer your questions, let me know and I'll try to figure out where I screwed up. So yeah, sorry if anything's unclear or unanswered. I didn't end up sleeping at all last night, and I haven't had breakfast yet. Not even my cupa Earl Grey. So I might not be playing with a full deck for a few more hours (or the rest of the day, depending on how it goes).

---

So, the core values.

Oneness of God:
We believe that there is only one God, Who is Unknowable in Essence, Imperishable, Uncreated, the Origin of Existence, and on it goes. We believe that He (we use the English pronoun He as a default, not because we believe God is male) created this world (but not in the sense that Christians believe He created the world), and that the purpose of creation is to develop perfections and to grow to know and love our Creator.

Oneness of Humanity:
We believe that humanity is one, that we are all equal regardless of race, gender, religion (or lack thereof), nationality, caste, or social class. One of the main focuses, and something that we actively strive for in the communities we reside in, is the elimination of all forms of prejudice.

Oneness of Religion:
We believe all religions (or at the very least the prophetic religions) were given to humanity by the same God, and that they all originally taught basically the same things about God. The differences arose due to the believers distorting the teachings of God's Messengers as time passed.
Part of this belief in the oneness of religion is the belief in progressive revelation. In simplified form, progressive revelation goes like this:
Moses taught some stuff, and Jesus repeated some of it. But Jesus also taught some more stuff. Then Muhammad repeated some of Jesus's stuff, but He also taught some more stuff. Then the Bab repeated some of Muhammad's stuff, and taught some more stuff. Then Baha'u'llah repeated some of the Bab's stuff, and taught some more stuff. And this list of "more stuff" gets larger with each new revelation. It's kind of like our species has been going through school, and each new revelation is a grade.

As for unity in diversity, that's a pretty simple one. We can all just get along, even though we all disagree. Of course, there's a lot more on that than what I said. But I'm tired. Gimme a break, lol.

Thank you. . . can I summarize all this as "Oneness" ?

ie. as the main objective of Baha'i Faith. . . main theme

What is the self discovery system for reaching this Oneness ?

Hmm... I suppose you could if you wanted to.

As for the self discovery system, do you mean independent investigation of truth? If so, that's just read the Writings, pray, think, decide for yourself whether you agree with it or not.

If you mean something more mystical, it is to follow the commands of Baha'u'llah, pray, meditate, and serve mankind. As you do this, the Oneness (as you summarize it) becomes clear.

[Mudhammam]

What do we practice? If I understand the question correctly (I may be confused. This is a normal state of mind for me at any moment before 0800 hours), we practice service. Service to the Faith, service to our community, service to mankind as a whole when possible. Service is such a big deal for us that it is considered identical with the worship of God.

Service to people is wonderful and I admire that. Service to faith? Sounds potentially dangerous (not in your case but) for others who interpret "faith" to mean something entirely different and abhorrent--which is so easily accomplished when you're not basing your ideas in rational thought informed by empirical evidence.

Our rituals, meditations, and prayers? Well, we're not really ritual heavy. Our personal daily practice (ooooh, was this what you were asking?) is just at least one prayer in the morning accompanied by at least one reading from the Writings, a daily recitation of Allah'u'Abha 95 times (that would be our meditation), at least one of the three Obligatory Prayers (there's a short one, that is to be said at noon, a long one, that can be said at any point in a 24 hour period, and a medium length one to be said three times a day, morning, noon, and evening. We get to choose which we use), and at least one prayer and reading from the Writings in the evening. As a community, we have a gathering every 19 days called a Feast (and yes, in case you're wondering, there is food), we have several Holy Days, and we'll often gather for devotional and prayer meetings. At all of these prayers are said and the Writings read. Um. Ritual, ritual. Well, there's the wedding ceremony, which is pretty simple. All that's required is a) permission of both sets of parents, b) witness appointed by LSA (Local Spiritual Assembly), and c) the couple says the wedding vow: "We will all, verily, abide by the Will of God." There's also the burial, which is a little more complex. We cannot be cremated, frozen, launched into space (I've considered it in the past), or anything like that. We must be buried, preferably without being embalmed. Donating our organs for medical use is encouraged. Um, what else. Oh yes, the body should be wrapped in either clean silk or clean cotton. There is also a prayer for the dead said during funerals, which is the only congregational prayer in the Baha'i Faith.

I think that's it for rituals and such.

Thank you. That is very informative.

As for the difference between secluding yourself from the rest of mankind and contemplating the individual's relationship with humanity and what we advocate: Big difference. For one, we're not allowed to seclude ourselves from the world. We must be out and about serving, not hidden up in some monastery somewhere. So yeah. There's a difference.

Whoa, you're "not allowed"? You mean "it's discouraged"? You "choose not to"? Not allowed? What happens if you do? Do you not think there can be great personal benefits in secluding yourself from others every now and then?

As I told the others, because I feel it is true.

This can't seriously be your standard for evaluating claims to truth, can it?

Baha'u'llah's teachings aren't just about morality, although many of them are, or social change, although many of them are. It's a way of life, a way of belief, that just makes sense to me.

As for why we use the word "God." Well, I guess because that's what Baha'u'llah used? And because it's the closest concept to what we believe about God.
And whether the question matters or not... It does to me. It affects how I live my life, and it affects what I think will happen after I die.

What happens after you die is irrelevant while you're alive. it's like worrying about what I'm going to eat for dinner on New Year's when I'm 65. Or do you think rewards and punishments are going to be distributed to you depending upon your actions now? What do you think happens to those outside of your faith, such as me?

"If you read any of the holy books..." LOL! I'm sorry, I just find that amusing. I've read -most- of the Holy Books that are readily available to me.

I didn't mean that in a condescending manner. I didn't mean like if YOU would only read them, zan! I meant like, if anyone reads them...

And while I do see some surface differences, the underlying reality seems pretty much the same to me. I started figuring that out even before I left Christianity.

Since they're all written by humans, they share the same general insecurities, hopes, dreams...but when it comes to the points that matter, the specifics, they couldn't be more different. I don't think you could disagree unless you a prior feel the need to justify the creed that all religions are One. Clearly, according to the books themselves and the majority of adherents who study them and take them seriously... they're just not.

As for "all Gods were originally revealed to mankind", that sentence makes it appear that you didn't understand my original statement about the Baha'i beliefs regarding God and past religions. So, I'll repeat, and try to be clearer this time (since I'm pretty sure it was an error on my part): Baha'is don't believe in "Gods" but One God.

Yes but there polytheists and various monotheists who would quote their "revelation" to demonstrate your "blasphemy" in confusing the various identities of their respective Gods.

We believe that in every religion God has revealed Himself in a way that was suitable for that time and that place. So, if God appears to be one way in one religion, and another in a different religion, it is because God revealed Himself in a way that those people could grasp. These differences are then exaggerated by later errors made by believers in that religion, and they continue to be exaggerated over time.

There is absolutely no reason to think this. If there is, please tell.

I think I managed to answer your questions? If I wasn't clear somewhere, or didn't seem to really answer your questions, let me know and I'll try to figure out where I screwed up. So yeah, sorry if anything's unclear or unanswered. I didn't end up sleeping at all last night, and I haven't had breakfast yet. Not even my cupa Earl Grey. So I might not be playing with a full deck for a few more hours (or the rest of the day, depending on how it goes).

Yes, thank you, zan. I hope you will not take offense at my questions. I'm just trying to figure out how you think this makes much sense.

[Whateverist]

You'e not prying too much at all.

So, to answer your first question, which oneness are you referring to? Oneness of God, Oneness of Humanity, or Oneness of Religion? By Oneness of God is meant there is only One God. By Oneness of Humanity is meant that we are all one race, the human race. By Oneness of Religion is meant that all religions are part of the ever evolving One Religion of God, which grows and reveals more as we mature as a species.

As for your second question, obviously Oneness of God requires a belief in God, lol. Oneness of Humanity doesn't, however. Oneness of Religion, as understood by Baha'is, does, though, since it relies on the concept that God is revealing more to us as we mature.

And yes, I was raised to believe in God. Just, not the way I believe now. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home. So, the kind of things I'm talking about now were not only not believed, they were believed to be things of the devil. I became disillusioned with the Christian church at 17 (for reasons I would rather not divulge here), and started looking at other paths. Nothing really worked for me, and I was considering just giving up on religion and becoming agnostic/atheist. Then I started reading about the Baha'i Faith, it made sense (to me), and I decided to give it a go. So far, it's working.

All fundamentalist religions represent what is worst about religions. I'm happy for you that you found your way 'up the ladder' to a more reasonable faith position. Joseph Campbell, from his study of religions past and present, would have agree with you about the oneness of religions .. albeit not for the same reason. However his conclusions could be seen as corroborating those of your new faith.

All in all it seems you have found a way to throw out the dirty bath water while keeping the baby. I hope your new church continues to satisfy and fulfill you.

Oh and I do have more questions for you. These concern your new religion's stance toward science. I imagine this may have come up already since I last posted so I need to catch up here. My guess is that your church's stance toward science would be pretty accepting.

Question #3: Do you believe God had a hand in creating/designing the universe? Is he still seen as pulling it all out of nothing by magic? Does every scientific discovery therefore reveal still more details of divine creation, God's brushstrokes if you like? Or better yet, do they simply drop 'creator' from God's resume. Even if God and people, along with the rest of the universe, were co-evolving from the same mysterious beginnings, He could still play a pretty significant role in people's lives, couldn't He?

Question #4: Are souls still seen as something apart from the body which are eternal? Does your new religion still believe in an afterlife? Does reincarnation play a part? Perhaps these souls just keep getting recycled and perfected until .. what? Is there a goal for souls? (I'm guessing oneness with God. But if so, does oneness mean absorption and dissolution or is personal identity maintained?)

Thanks again.

[zanOTK]

You'e not prying too much at all.

So, to answer your first question, which oneness are you referring to? Oneness of God, Oneness of Humanity, or Oneness of Religion? By Oneness of God is meant there is only One God. By Oneness of Humanity is meant that we are all one race, the human race. By Oneness of Religion is meant that all religions are part of the ever evolving One Religion of God, which grows and reveals more as we mature as a species.

As for your second question, obviously Oneness of God requires a belief in God, lol. Oneness of Humanity doesn't, however. Oneness of Religion, as understood by Baha'is, does, though, since it relies on the concept that God is revealing more to us as we mature.

And yes, I was raised to believe in God. Just, not the way I believe now. I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian home. So, the kind of things I'm talking about now were not only not believed, they were believed to be things of the devil. I became disillusioned with the Christian church at 17 (for reasons I would rather not divulge here), and started looking at other paths. Nothing really worked for me, and I was considering just giving up on religion and becoming agnostic/atheist. Then I started reading about the Baha'i Faith, it made sense (to me), and I decided to give it a go. So far, it's working.

All fundamentalist religions represent what is worst about religions. I'm happy for you that you found your way 'up the ladder' to a more reasonable faith position. Joseph Campbell, from his study of religions past and present, would have agree with you about the oneness of religions .. albeit not for the same reason. However his conclusions could be seen as corroborating those of your new faith.

All in all it seems you have found a way to throw out the dirty bath water while keeping the baby. I hope your new church continues to satisfy and fulfill you.

Oh and I do have more questions for you. These concern your new religion's stance toward science. I imagine this may have come up already since I last posted so I need to catch up here. My guess is that your church's stance toward science would be pretty accepting.

Question #3: Do you believe God had a hand in creating/designing the universe? Is he still seen as pulling it all out of nothing by magic? Does every scientific discovery therefore reveal still more details of divine creation, God's brushstrokes if you like? Or better yet, do they simply drop 'creator' from God's resume. Even if God and people, along with the rest of the universe, were co-evolving from the same mysterious beginnings, He could still play a pretty significant role in people's lives, couldn't He?

Question #4: Are souls still seen as something apart from the body which are eternal? Does your new religion still believe in an afterlife? Does reincarnation play a part? Perhaps these souls just keep getting recycled and perfected until .. what? Is there a goal for souls? (I'm guessing oneness with God. But if so, does oneness mean absorption and dissolution or is personal identity maintained?)

Thanks again.

Q#3: We do believe God had a hand in creating the universe. What exactly the nature of this is, to my knowledge, is not elaborated on. But we pretty much accept everything science says about the physical world. 'Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'u'llah's son, is actually quoted somewhere saying that if science and religion disagree, religion is wrong. We do not, however, believe that God is evolving Himself. Only our understanding (or total lack of understanding, however you like to look at it) is evolving. But God Himself is without beginning or end, Eternal, Unchanging.

Q#4: We do believe in the soul as being separate from the body and eternal. We also believe in an afterlife (we do not, however, believe in Heaven and Hell (or their counterparts in various religions) as literal places. They are states of being). We do not believe in reincarnation, we believe that the soul comes in to being at conception (this does not mean that abortion is out of the question, however), and that it has come into being in our world in order to develop spiritual qualities that will be used in the afterlife (kind of like our physical bodies develop in our mother's womb), and that these will be used in the afterlife to continuously serve God and draw nearer to Him. We do not believe that the soul will ever become one with God, but its goal instead is to attain the presence of God.

Hopefully I provided satisfactory answers to your questions.

Pickup_shonuff, I'm going to have to answer your questions later. I'm about to meet up with a friend for the USA vs Germany match today.