Which was first: Atheism or Religion?

[Mystical]

I'd like to see the evidence for animals acting superstitious.

The more I think about it the more I do think consciousness is intertwined with deism. Our environment is truly awe inspiring, and in order to survive it, every post modern civilization has had varying degrees of deism. In order to survive we have adapted to be able to predict what could happen. In order to do that we had to understand causation. Clearly looking at this magnificent planet and its systems causes people to think about its origins.

I think deism was first and that the more we understand the world around us the more we are able to see the causality and not have to attribute its systems to a Creator.

[Angrboda]

I'd like to see the evidence for animals acting superstitious.

http://io9.com/5746904/how-pigeons-get-t...erstitious

[fr0d0]

I'm truly humbled to be schooled by someone with no understanding of the subject.

That is too funny though

You'll say anything to justify your pride, eh? Definitely easier than otherwise. But remember:

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

And try not to laugh too much for now because Jesus said:

Woe to you who laugh now, for you shall mourn and weep.

Also, Jesus said:

“Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift."

And:

I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Bro get one of these :

---

Rhythm you appear to be suffering from word salad.

"perhaps you could explain this mysterious barrier to verification that is not present in yourself or other believers but that -is- present in myself and other non-believers; since that's a conveniently empirical claim some demonstration of it's veracity ought to be forthcoming?"

The barrier is in your mind. We can believe intellectually by the power of deduction. You've seen how it works so don't go acting dumb on me now. The rewards of belief are evident. Here's the tricky bit, be sure to concentrate..... to a non believer those effects can be explained away. Look on these forums for more reasons to disbelieve your own existence, let alone a supernatural entity.

Bottom line is, the fruit of the pudding is I'm the eating. People test it and discover it to be true.

This is practical, physical proof. Nothing supernatural at all. Yet it it's proof of the supernatural, via testing of biblical premise. Nothing magical. Purely natural.

---

Something

Bah!!
Can you go into more detail?

You know I'm Welsh and partial to sheep right? Temptress!!!

---

Experience suggests no.

There's a band wagon, let's jump on!!

---

Just a page or two more if this until Frodo claims he provided evidence and a rational argument!

Does this shit for brains even know what he's saying?!

[GrandizerII]

Whatever god this fr0d0 guy believes in is a useless god that doesn't hold him accountable for anything he says. He even ignores Scripture.

You are indeed a bad testimony for the Lord, fr0d0. Because you have failed to amend things between us, you and I are no longer on speaking terms until/unless you do so.

Not a big loss for me since you never really say anything intellectually worth addressing.

[Cyberman]

Verifiable : sure. Every Christian verifies the experience of the rest. Independently verifiable to non believers : no.

So we're back to...

Atheist: "I'll believe it when I see it."

Theist: "I'll see it when I believe it."

[The Grand Nudger]

The barrier is in your mind. We can believe intellectually by the power of deduction.

It shouldn't be too difficult to demonstrate that believers have greater deductive abilities (or more accurate deductive results) than non-believers Frodo.

You've seen how it works so don't go acting dumb on me now. The rewards of belief are evident. Here's the tricky bit, be sure to concentrate..... to a non believer those effects can be explained away. Look on these forums for more reasons to disbelieve your own existence, let alone a supernatural entity.

This is practical, physical proof. Nothing supernatural at all. Yet it it's proof of the supernatural, via testing of biblical premise. Nothing magical. Purely natural.

To be completely honest - I've never "seen how it works", all I've seen is you and others claim that it does, has, and can work. Rewards are irrelevant and certainly not evident until such time as you make them so. Anything can be explained away, sure. That doesn't mean that the explanation is inaccurate in any particular case.

It may be practical (I wouldn't know) but it certainly isn't proof. This is your empirical evidence of the supernatural? Essentially, that you believe in it? That you can concentrate so hard that you cease to be able to explain things away? Things that other people seem to have no issue explaining without invoking a god?

Do you step out of your door to the sight of floating passenger vehicles? Do birds suddenly appear...every time you walk near? Does your floor sweep itself?

[Whateverist]

But... If religion was first, then atheism was created by religion.

When did atheism originate?

Was evolution involvolved or was it created?

They say: your future all depends on your roots.

Well if they say it, there you go then. Nice to get such a decisive view unencumbered as it is by any apparent support.

[GrandizerII]

Verifiable : sure. Every Christian verifies the experience of the rest. Independently verifiable to non believers : no.

So we're back to...

Atheist: "I'll believe it when I see it."

Theist: "I'll see it when I believe it."

Precisely. One side is about intellectual honesty despite one's biases, the other side is about strongly conforming to one's biases.

[bennyboy]

So we're back to...

Atheist: "I'll believe it when I see it."

Theist: "I'll see it when I believe it."

Precisely. One side is about intellectual honesty despite one's biases, the other side is about strongly conforming to one's biases.

I think accusations of dishonesty are going too far. There are definitely powerful experiences that could be called religious, and there is enough consistency in them for them to be meaningfully discussed by religious or spiritual people.

There are two separate issues here: one is that many atheists may not have had the kinds of experiences that religious people are talking about. The other is the issue of attribution. Given that people of different religions have similar experiences but vastly different explanations and mythologies by which they explain them, what can we infer? That the religion is the linguistic embodiment of the feelings, and that the feelings are therefore not the fulfillment of the religious beliefs. In other words, a literal belief in the Bible or any other religious doctrine is foolish.

But being wrong is not always being dishonest.

[downbeatplumb]

I'd like to see the evidence for animals acting superstitious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uPmeWiFTIw


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner