Quote:The basis for the religion is that he "saved" us all.
That's an even bigger turd than the "resurrection."
Regarding Jesus
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Quote:The basis for the religion is that he "saved" us all. That's an even bigger turd than the "resurrection." RE: Regarding Jesus
July 9, 2014 at 1:00 pm
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2014 at 1:02 pm by vorlon13.)
And since it was mentioned, an interesting little bit about Scientology;
L. Ron Hubbard seems to have spelled "Xenu" as "Xemu" on at least a few occasions, and while the recordings are perhaps not as clear as we could wish, he seems to have pronounced it both ways too. Maybe Xenu/Xemu oscillated in his existence between the two 'poles' of his identity, somewhat similar in how neutrinos are believed to oscillate ? If this conjecture is disavowed by today's mainline Scientologist community, perhaps it is time to form a new religion based upon this new truth ? And we cannot rule out that some of the perceived inconsistencies in the Jesus saga might be explained by an oscillation of his being, as it were, in two differing directions. Jesus may have existed in a superposition of two states of being!
The earliest Roman writers ( Suetonius and Pliny ) never heard of anyone named "jesus." The did hear of "christos" or more probably "chrestos." The Tacitus reference which is probably a later forgery still does not mention "jesus."
(July 8, 2014 at 9:09 am)Rhythm Wrote:Abe Lincoln hunted vampires, bro. They made a documentary!(July 8, 2014 at 5:01 am)Confused Ape Wrote: It's remotely possible that the Biblical Jesus was inspired by a real man. He could have been one of the many Messiah claimants of the time. As he didn't cause enough disturbance to get the Roman legions involved he wouldn't have been recorded in history.Not, in any way shape or form, jesus, or even worth calling jesus
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
And George Washington sold cars.
(July 9, 2014 at 11:53 am)Minimalist Wrote: Interesting discussion but as H. L. Mencken noted: The only way he could have risen from the dead was if people thought he was dead and he wasn't. Three days dead is nothing compared to - Zombie gran: 95-year-old Chinese woman terrifies neighbours by climbing out of her coffin six days after she 'died' Quote:The ‘dead’ woman was laid in her coffin on February 19, two days after she was discovered. Eat your heart out Biblical Jesus - somebody is twice as miraculous as you were. Meanwhile, Angelo Hays Quote:(born ca 1918) was a French celebrity and inventor. He is best known for having survived a premature burial for two days. These people aren't the only examples of this kind of thing. If there was a real Jesus who was thought to be dead when he wasn't it's likely that his followers would have thought his waking up as miraculous. This still wouldn't make the Christian religion plausible, though, because coming back from the dead like this doesn't require a virgin mother and a divine father. (July 9, 2014 at 11:53 am)Minimalist Wrote: All the apologetic attempts to find a "historical" jesus miss the point that unless he did what Mencken says it doesn't matter in the least. Xtians do not worship the man - they worship the magic tricks. And without the tricks "jesus" is a nobody. Why does everything have to hinge on what Christians believe in before it's relevant? If there ever was a real man who was obscured by myths and legends he would have been an ordinary human. People might have believed he performed miracles because people still believe in faith healers in the 21st century. If he rose from the dead it would have been because he was never dead in the first place. Even myths and legends being attached to him doesn't make him unique because thousands of humans have had myths and legends attached to them. A real Jesus isn't required for the Christian religion to get started, of course. The reason will still be ordinary, though, because that's reality for you. (July 9, 2014 at 10:03 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: And all this sets aside the issue that once you strip out all the supernatural from the Gospel biography, you've gutted 90% of the story. This is what Judaism has done and the 10% that's left is far more interesting than the myths and legends from an historical point of view. This still doesn't mean there actually was a real Jesus, of course. (July 9, 2014 at 10:03 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: If you were to tell the story of a mortal Jesus, it would similarly bare little resemblance to the story in the Gospels. So what? Jews write articles about an ordinary human Jesus where his life bears little resemblance to the story in the Gospels. According to Judaism he was a failed messiah who had some followers and got executed like a lot of other nuisances from a Roman point of view. (July 9, 2014 at 10:03 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: The story of Jesus IS about the miracles and the divinity. That's like saying the story of Alexander the Great is about the myths and legends that grew up about him. Alexander As Myth Quote:The legend of Alexander started spreading right after Alexander's death and overshadowed his real life. Alexander became a mythical figure, a theme for folk-songs, epics and anecdotes. Even his name was modified or distorted. Wondrous Signs Before the Birth of Alexander the Great Quote:His mother dreamed on the night before her wedding, that she was penetrated by a thunderbolt. Fire spread out in all directions. The fact that Alexander the Great really existed doesn't prove that there was a real man who ended up as the Jesus in the Bible, though. Where are the snake and mushroom smilies?
(July 9, 2014 at 2:28 pm)Confused Ape Wrote: That's like saying the story of Alexander the Great is about the myths and legends that grew up about him. There is an important difference between these two things:
This is a really important difference often lost in discussions about The Historical Jesus as examples like the one you offer are thrown into the mix. To explain the difference between the two, let me reference a movie that came out about 10 years ago: The movie was based on Homer's Iliad, with a lot of liberties taken, including the survival of Paris. What was most interesting is it took out all of the supernatural elements. There were no gods, no magic and no mystical protection that Achilles enjoyed. The movie related what might have been the real story of the Trojan War (disclaimer: we don't actually know that; I'm just saying for the sake of argument, let's assume it is). It's easy to see that once you rip out all the woo, the story is largely intact with the same characters and the same events. Hence, the Iliad would be a story with supernatural embellishments. Take the embellishments away and you have roughly the same story. Now, let's compare this with a hypothetical TV Series called "Clark Kent". This TV series would feature this story:
As you can see, I've done my best to create a hypothetical story that ties in as many elements of the classic DC hero as I can while keeping it all down to earth, natural, without any alien aspects or super powers. I've even suggested many tip-of-the-hat references in character dialogue. Now compare my hypothetical TV series with the DC comic story. It's a different story about a different character. The story of Superman isn't a story with fantastic embellishments. The story IS all about the fantastic elements. Take them away and you have an empty shell. The story of Jesus without the miracles and the divinity is the story of "some guy". Like the hypothetical TV series I suggested, the story ends up being about a different character and having little or no resemblance to the Gospel tale.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too." ... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept "(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question" ... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist Quote:Why does everything have to hinge on what Christians believe in before it's relevant? Because all they have is belief and that is what they insist is real. One cannot dispel delusion without dealing with the delusion. (July 9, 2014 at 5:52 am)Confused Ape Wrote: RE: Regarding Jesus
July 9, 2014 at 6:54 pm
(This post was last modified: July 9, 2014 at 7:10 pm by Confused Ape.)
(July 9, 2014 at 4:54 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: The story of Jesus without the miracles and the divinity is the story of "some guy". Like the hypothetical TV series I suggested, the story ends up being about a different character and having little or no resemblance to the Gospel tale. If there was somebody buried underneath all the myths and legends what else would he be but just some guy? The Jewish view of Jesus is that he was another failed messiah wannabe who preached, had some followers and got executed. If you take all the miracles and divinity out of the Gospel stories you're left with some guy who preached, had some followers and got executed. Judaism rejects Jesus as a messiah because he didn't fulfil the messiah requirements. If there ever was a real man who ended up as mythical Jesus, the majority of Jews in his day would have rejected him for the same reason. The only thing anyone can say for certain is that Jewish beliefs about a messiah got mixed up with other mythology. How did it happen? Nobody knows so it's all down to speculation. Whatever the real reason was, though, it would be mundane. For example, somebody deciding to start a cult about a divine messiah would be a mundane reason because umpteen people throughout history have decided to start a cult about something. (July 9, 2014 at 5:04 pm)Minimalist Wrote:Quote:Why does everything have to hinge on what Christians believe in before it's relevant? There are mundane explanations for how the story of the resurrection could have got started and a real Jesus isn't required here. If somebody, somewhere was thought to be dead when they weren't and their revival went into folklore as a miracle it would be an ideal event to add the the stories of Inanna, Osiris and Jesus. Judaism, meanwhile, has a mundane explanation for a real life of Jesus if he ever existed. Christians determined to hang onto their beliefs won't consider mundane explanations any more than Young Earth Creationists accept scientific facts which contradict what they want to believe. (July 9, 2014 at 6:05 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote: The story is still an ethnocentric religious fairy tale with a cast of imaginary characters and no basis in reality. When the English got their hands on it they wrote it as an elaborate joke that still goes over most people's heads even today. Can you provide links to reputable sources explaining this elaborate joke? It sounds fascinating so I'd like to read about it. Where are the snake and mushroom smilies?
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