"Gospel Quest" (or The Jesus Timeline)

[Brakeman]

Also, this date allows for the all-so-interesting celestial dance between 3-2 BC, which may have been what the Magi saw:
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/setting-the...ists-star/

When you get to it, I'm just dying for you to show us the single point vectoring that enabled the magi and shepherds to pinpoint the right house with a stationary guide millions of miles away.

[Jenny A]

DeistPaladin and Minimalist, you both have been around here long enough to have received apologists' answers to your arguments. But your arguments seem to me to boil down to two claims: the God of the Bible is evil, and he was authored by deceptive people.

This thread is devoted to one simple questions, are the Gospels reliable? Changing the subject won't make them reliable.

What if God is good, though? What if he is love itself, as 1 John 4:8 describes? DeistPaladin, every judgment in the Bible is preceded by years, sometimes hundreds of years, of God's pleading for the people to repent.

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It is good that you've quoted Numbers 16. But I am going to take some time now and quote the rest of the Bible, starting with the old testament book by book, all infused with God's message of love. This is to provide a broader picture, rather than cherry-picking. If you will read with me:

To begin God's relationship with Israel, he makes a covenant with Abraham. This covenant is one sided: God will bless Israel.

Genesis 22:17-18
“I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.”

Exodus 6:7
“I will claim you as my own people, and I will be your God. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God who has freed you from your oppression in Egypt.”

Repeatedly God promises to take the Jews to the “promised land”. However, when they arrive they forget God's power and return to the desert afraid. They spend 40 years in the desert, long enough so that only the two people who trusted God (Joshua and Caleb) are still alive to see the promised land. God leads Israel to victory time and time again, fulfilling his promises: “So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their ancestors, and they took possession of it and settled there. The Lord gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their ancestors. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the Lord gave all their enemies into their hands. Not one of all the Lord’s good promises to Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.” (Joshua 21:43-45)

But the Israelites, against God's commands, treat many of the Canaanites as neighbors and begin worshipping their idols. God punishes the Jews by sending raiders. The Jews call on God for help, and he sends heroes, or “judges”, to organize the people and defeat the enemy—men like Samson and Gideon. The cycle of sin, punishment, repentance, and deliverance repeats at least a dozen times through the book of Judges.

Next, a woman from Moab called Ruth marries her “kinsman-redeemer” (a picture of Christ) and goes on to become grandmother to king David and non-Jewish ancestor in the lineage of Jesus.

In those days Israel had no king except the Lord. They rebel against God, asking Samuel the prophet, “Appoint a king to lead us, such as all the other nations have.” God tells Samuel: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.” (1 Samuel 8:4-9)

King Saul did indeed “claim as his rights” much of the Jews' possessions. And he failed to defeat the Philistines, who continually harassed Israel. Ultimately, he breaks God's law by placing himself above the priests and offering a sacrifice only a priest is allowed to offer. Samuel tells him, “Obedience is better than sacrifice.” (1 Samuel 15:22) Soon after, Saul dies at the hands of the Philistines. David, a former shepherd boy, becomes king. He is rewarded for not killing Saul, who hunted him. He even told his men, “The Lord forbid that I should do such a thing to my master, the Lord’s anointed, or lay my hand on him; for he is the anointed of the Lord.” (1 Samuel 24:6) David wrote most of the Psalms and is called “a man after God's own heart.” (1 Samuel 13:14) He understands God's love. He pens, “You, Lord, are forgiving and good, abounding in love to all who call to you” (Psalm 86:5) and “You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings. My sacrifice, O God, is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart you, God, will not despise.” (Psalm 51:16-17). David committed adultery and murder, but he knew that if he repented, God would forgive him. And God blessed David, saying “The Lord declares to you that the Lord himself will establish a house [i.e. dynasty] for you: When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.” This looked forward to David's son Solomon, but also to Jesus Christ, the son of David, who would rule forever.

When Solomon dedicates the temple he built for the Lord he says, “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built!” (1 Kings 8:27) and then “Moreover, concerning a foreigner, who is not of Your people Israel, but has come from a far country for Your name's sake (for they will hear of Your great name and Your strong hand and Your outstretched arm), when he comes and prays toward this temple, hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to You, that all peoples of the earth may know Your name and fear You, as do Your people Israel, and that they may know that this temple which I have built is called by Your name. (41-43)

Solomon prayed for wisdom and received blessings tenfold. Israel was so prosperous that the temple contained more than 100k talents of gold and 1m talents of silver (1 Ch 22:14) and so much cedar that Solomon paid King Hiram with 20 towns in Galilee.

What follows is a line of kings who “did evil in the eyes of the Lord” (a common phrase). 1 and 2 Kings describe how the kingdom split into a northern and southern kingdom. Only a few kings were loyal to God and kept his commands, most notably Josiah, who found the book of the Law and read it before all Israel. God sends a number of prophets to warn Israel of coming doom if they do not repent.

Isaiah echoes what Solomon predicted—that God loves everyone, not just Israel.

“And foreigners who bind themselves to the Lord to minister to him, to love the name of the Lord, and to be his servants, all who keep the Sabbath without desecrating it and who hold fast to my covenant—
these I will bring to my holy mountain and give them joy in my house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house will be called a house of prayer for all nations.” (Is 56:7)

Jeremiah 7:2-3
"Hear the word of the Lord, all you people of Judah who come through these gates to worship the Lord. This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: 'Reform your ways and your actions, and I will let you live in this place.'"

Jeremiah 7:22-26
For when I brought your ancestors out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your God and you will be my people. Walk in obedience to all I command you, that it may go well with you. But they did not listen or pay attention; instead, they followed the stubborn inclinations of their evil hearts. They went backward and not forward. From the time your ancestors left Egypt until now, day after day, again and again I sent you my servants the prophets. But they did not listen to me or pay attention. They were stiff-necked and did more evil than their ancestors.’

Zechariah 8:2 "Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I am exceedingly jealous for Zion, yes, with great wrath I am jealous for her.'”

This is a theme throughout the OT. The Israelites chase after false idols, and God tries to get their attention back. He sends prophets, who they reject. He sends the Assyrians and Babylonians to take them captive. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah and Joel warn of the coming judgment. Amos warns other nations that they will be punished for their sins. Hosea is told by God to marry a practicing prostitute to illustrate Israel's adultery with other gods. Lamentations describes Israel's grief when they are finally borne away to Babylon, after hundreds of years of warnings. Ezekiel, a captive, predicts that the Jewish nation will, in fact, rebel (in spite of warnings that they will not succeed) and will then be destroyed. Yet he adds that in time God will “bring them home from the lands of their enemies” (Ez 39:27). Zephaniah also predicts this, saying, “I will gather you together and bring you home again. I will give you a good name, a name of distinction, among all the nations of the earth” (Zeph 3:20). Daniel, a hostage, receives protection from the lions and a place in the king's court, because he relied on the Lord. Esther and Mordecai received similar rewards for their loyalty. After 70 years, Haggai convinces the Jews to start rebuilding Jerusalem's temple. Zechariah assures them that God will not only help them rebuild the temple, but the entire nation. Ezra returns with an early wave of Jews. He discovers that the people are breaking some of God's most important laws. Knowing that this kind of sin led to God's judgment earlier, he teaches them. This time, they repent. Nehemiah leads hundreds to rebuild the wall. Fast forward four hundred years, and Jesus comes. He is the fulfillment of all the OT prophecies, the “lamb without blemish or defect” (Ex 12:5, 1 Pet 1:19), “led like a sheep to the slaughter” (Is 53:7, Acts 8:32), “Son of Man” (Daniel 7:13, Mark 14:62), “they will call him Immanuel, which means 'God with us” (Is 7:14, Matt 1:23), and many more http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Miscellan...hecies.htm

Through all this, it becomes clear that God loves his people and blesses those who seek him. Israel was the rescue boat for the world, through which God would reveal his true nature, seen in Jesus—that he is self-sacrificial, others-deferring, worth-ascribing love. Jesus is “the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.” (Hebrews 1:3). At times the rescue boat itself needed rescue, but God is faithful. He remembered his promises. The temple in Jerusalem, the intersection of heaven and earth—was a foreshadowing of Jesus who would “destroy this temple and I will raise it again in three days” (Mark 14:58). Jesus body itself was the temple, and it rose after three days in the tomb. There is no temple in Jerusalem today, and no sacrifices, because Jesus fulfilled it all on the cross.

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The whole OT is about god favoring one people of all others for reasons unknown. He does awful things to some of his people, accepts human sacrifice, and does much worse to non Hebrews. But none of these things are history. Would you like a whole new thread explaining why most of Genesis is impossible, the story of Exodus didn't happen, and Israel wasn't concurred by the Hebrews as described. There's nothing historical to speak of in the Bible until Kings and Chronicles and they aren't all that reliable. I'll do it, but only if you promise to actually refute what I say by engaging with the arguments and not by just citing huge apologetic documents---quote the relevant portions instead. Then try to defend them from counter arguments. Hint, you are doing nothing remotely like that here.

All of this history. One overarching message. Ask yourself what's more likely: a combination of coincidence and collaboration... or God caring?

What is most likely is that it is story written during the Babylonian captivity for the purpose of uniting the Hebrews using traditional and conflicting sources.

[Minimalist]

Also, this date allows for the all-so-interesting celestial dance between 3-2 BC, which may have been what the Magi saw:
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/setting-the...ists-star/

Uh-huh...

I can't wait for the explanation of this little piece of the star shit.

9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.

Whatever blithering moron wrote this nonsense thought of stars as lights in the sky - not what we now know stars to be. Unless the explanation is that they were right and modern science is wrong!

[Brakeman]

Also, this date allows for the all-so-interesting celestial dance between 3-2 BC, which may have been what the Magi saw:
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/setting-the...ists-star/

When you get to it, I'm just dying for you to show us the single point vectoring that enabled the magi and shepherds to pinpoint the right house with a stationary guide millions of miles away.

In 3/2 BC, Jupiter’s retrograde wandering would have called for our magus’ full attention. After Jupiter and Regulus had their kingly encounter, Jupiter continued on its path through the star field. But then it entered retrograde. It “changed its mind” and headed back to Regulus for a second conjunction. After this second pass it reversed course again for yet a third rendezvous with Regulus, a triple conjunction. A triple pass like this is more rare. Over a period of months, our watching magus would have seen the Planet of Kings dance out a halo above the Star of Kings. A coronation.

Thats a shitload of information from a couple of dots in the sky movig closer and further away.
So the claim is that the star was the planet Jupiter. The christian site reeks of smoke and mirrors, you have to follow a number of pages to even find out what they claim the star is, and they make a horridly bad claim that the star standing still was simply the apex of the retrograde. Never mind that no stopping occurred, only a perception changed. The god that gave us the bible was certainly dimwitted..

From a .EDU site..http://climate.gi.alaska.edu/curtis/astro2.html

Saturn-Regulus Conjunctions 29 years 1 month + 11 to 30 days

Interval between successive conjunctions; excluding triple conjunction intervals. For the brightest and nearest Saturn-star conjunctions.

So something that happens every 29 years or so, that has not been definitively matched to anything because a planet is not a star, that is millions of miles away moving in a direction that would be un-calculable before the invention of the telescope, this is your "proof" that jesus was born in the manner described in the gospels?

To a man walking on earth he could not orient himself with this as the earth is revolving and his perspective changes with the hour. The men of this time did not even own a watch. They in no way could have been guided to a house by Jupiter, or a real star.

This christian apology is not only childishly stupid, it is dishonest, as it is obvious that the story is written by one who knew nothing of the working of the cosmos nor knew anything about star reckoning. Even the sextant was not invented then.

You know the story that is being purported as factual, is not. You are lying to us. You are trying to deceive us so that we will mistakenly agree with your lies.

[Cyberman]

Also, this date allows for the all-so-interesting celestial dance between 3-2 BC, which may have been what the Magi saw:
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/setting-the...ists-star/

Ugh; not this Larson crap again.

I freely admit that certain minor details of my analysis might be flawed, owing to the paucity of the evidence provided. I have since revised my findings (and, time permitting, will be happy to do so again). Didn't make any substantial difference to the meat of it, though.

[Minimalist]

Let me know when you can track a "star" bouncing along the road between Jerusalem and "Bethlehem."

That should be entertaining.

[Undeceived]

Minimalist, are you saying that the majority of Bible scholars are wrong about the Bible? How is that different from saying astrophysicists don't know anything about stars?
I don't mean to make an argument from authority here, but neither should we resort to ad hominem.

Brakeman inspired me to respond to this post. When I first read it, I had disregarded it as the usual attempt to compare theology to science. I've grown a bit tired of pointing out how fields of science like astrophysics are studies of objective realities that are measurable and the tests/evidence can be conducted/discovered independently by another scientist in that field.

By "objective reality", I mean measurements of mass, kinetic energy, temperature, velocity, distance etc. can be measured in quantifiable ways. Personal opinions do not enter into it.

When an astrophysicist publishes an article, is it a straight line of facts, or is it an interpretation of the facts? For example, when they observe a star's "wobble" do they merely publish the sky coordinates on a timeline, or do they add their own hypothesis, namely that the "star" is actually a planet? In order to get anywhere in science, interpretations must be made, right?

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John's Jesus was still fuzzy on the identity issue but it was here that we start to see a Trinitarian Jesus, one who said "I and my father are one". Were you to read the Synoptics in isolation, you would not have any idea that Jesus was anything more than a holy man or a demigod offspring of Yahweh.

During Christ's trial, the chief priests ask Him point blank, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." And He said,
• "I am." (Mark 14:60-62)
• "Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65)
• "You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70)
Matthew 27:43 "He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"
In Mark 2:1-12, Jesus heals a paralytic. He had authority to forgive sins, which is something only God Himself can do. Then, to authenticate His claim, He demonstrated His power by healing the paralytic. Also, in Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17 and Luke 24:52 He accepts worship.
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.'”
And then there's all the prophecies He fulfilled, something the synoptics authors could not have missed when they wrote:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Miscellan...hecies.htm
In the Jewish context, a "son" is the heir and equal to his father. http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Son-of-God.html Moreover, Luke and Matthew make it clear the Jesus could not have been a demigod, since he was virgin-born.

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Also, this date allows for the all-so-interesting celestial dance between 3-2 BC, which may have been what the Magi saw:
http://www.bethlehemstar.net/setting-the...ists-star/

3-2 BCE would have been later than 4 BCE. Herod died in 4 BCE and so he couldn't have been talking with the wise men two years later.

The website makes the case that Herod died in 1 BC. There's a case for it, too:
http://booksandjournals.brillonline.com/...608x245953
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-aki...-of-jesus/
None of this is conclusive; it just goes to show how little we know. The Bible is ambiguous. Any "proving" or "disproving" it will probably involve a lot of opinions. If the gospels are true, its authors would have focused on doctrine and the character of Jesus-- their contemporaries were well aware of recent events, a preliminary block of evidence would have served little purpose. If the gospels are false, there are no mathematical contradictions to indicate such.

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When you get to it, I'm just dying for you to show us the single point vectoring that enabled the magi and shepherds to pinpoint the right house with a stationary guide millions of miles away.

I can't stand behind the website 100% (it's not scripture), but you might find it interesting. It involves science (imagine that)! Larson uses a professional astronomy program to determine the stars' formation at the time of Jesus' birth. It included one star/planet (Jupiter) coming into conjunction with several others, touching the Leo and Virgin constellations. Thus, the Magi would interpret royalty (Jupiter) from the tribe of Judah (Leo/lion). And they would go to the palace in Jerusalem and ask Herod if he knew anything about this king, which is exactly what they did.

[Undeceived]

9 After they had heard the king, they went on their way, and the star they had seen when it rose went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was.

Whatever blithering moron wrote this nonsense thought of stars as lights in the sky - not what we now know stars to be. Unless the explanation is that they were right and modern science is wrong!

You can read the website's explanation. I won't go into great detail here, as the topic has its own thread. Basically, in 3BC the conjunction would have appeared to be in the west, when viewed from the Middle East. And as the months of travel pass, it would have appeared to be overhead when they arrive. We know what the constellations looked like. Check out the evidence for yourself, but let's stay on topic here.

[Brakeman]

When you get to it, I'm just dying for you to show us the single point vectoring that enabled the magi and shepherds to pinpoint the right house with a stationary guide millions of miles away.

I can't stand behind the website 100% (it's not scripture), but you might find it interesting. It involves science (imagine that)! Larson uses a professional astronomy program to determine the stars' formation at the time of Jesus' birth. It included one star/planet (Jupiter) coming into conjunction with several others, touching the Leo and Virgin constellations. Thus, the Magi would interpret royalty (Jupiter) from the tribe of Judah (Leo/lion). And they would go to the palace in Jerusalem and ask Herod if he knew anything about this king, which is exactly what they did.

The website is not "interesting" it is fundamentally dishonest. They are picking out little bits of things that an astronomy program said was occurring during the claimed period and trying to convince people that it was the "appearing of a star" that was mentioned in their "big book 'o crazy."

First, Jupiter is not a star, man didn't know that at the time, science discovered that later. The bible would have been wrong if it called Jupiter a star.

Second, the light reflected from jupiter had been observed and known proceeding this date. It did not just "Appear" at that time.

Third, from wikipedia,

In 3–2 BC, there was a series of seven conjunctions, including three between Jupiter and Regulus and a strikingly close conjunction between Jupiter and Venus near Regulus on June 17, 2 BC. "The fusion of two planets would have been a rare and awe-inspiring event", according to Roger Sinnott.[57] Archaeologist and Assyriologist Simo Parpola has also suggested this explanation.[58] This event however occurred after the generally accepted date of 4 BC for the death of Herod. Since the conjunction would have been seen in the west at sunset it could not have led the magi south from Jerusalem to Bethlehem.[59] It also does not fit with an event seen at rising that might have started them on the journey.

Meaning Wrong time/date, AND Wrong direction in the sky!

And lastly, you have dishonestly evaded and dodged the fact that you can't guide people to a house with a star millions of miles away, which is the main event of the story. The story is pure hokem and you are a liar to pretend that it isn't. That's the problem with christians, they are the worst liars. They claim that morals come from god and that he is the truth, but then they spend their day lying to convince others of his morals and truth. Disgustingly dishonest people..

[DeistPaladin]

When an astrophysicist publishes an article, is it a straight line of facts, or is it an interpretation of the facts? For example, when they observe a star's "wobble" do they merely publish the sky coordinates on a timeline, or do they add their own hypothesis, namely that the "star" is actually a planet? In order to get anywhere in science, interpretations must be made, right?

Even when interpretations are made, the scientist must justify their beliefs with evidence or be, metaphorically, crucified by their peers.

During Christ's trial, the chief priests ask Him point blank, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." And He said,

"The Christ" means "The Anointed One" or "The Messiah". It does not mean "God incarnate".

"Son of God" does not mean "God incarnate". You'll notice I included "demigod offspring of Yahweh" in my list of things you might call Jesus if you only read Matt, Mark and Luke.

Nice try, though.

In Mark 2:1-12, Jesus heals a paralytic. He had authority to forgive sins, which is something only God Himself can do. Then, to authenticate His claim, He demonstrated His power by healing the paralytic.

He articulates that he'd been given the authority, calling himself "the Son of man".

Also, in Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17 and Luke 24:52 He accepts worship.

As the son of and intercessor for Yahweh.

Matthew 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.'”

This quote refers to Isaiah 7 which refers to a child who will be born to show the king of Judea that God is with him and he would prevail against the Syrians. Isaiah was not speaking of a future messiah nor of any son of God and certainly not of God incarnate.

And then there's all the prophecies He fulfilled, something the synoptics authors could not have missed when they wrote:

I'll review this website later but I've seen this argument in the past. The "prophecies fulfilled" are either lies about the OT scripture or unverifiable claims by the story.

Moreover, Luke and Matthew make it clear the Jesus could not have been a demigod, since he was virgin-born.

So was Perseus, the son of Zeus.

The website makes the case that Herod died in 1 BC.

That's a pretty fringy claim to say the least. Will review that website later.

their contemporaries were well aware of recent events, a preliminary block of evidence would have served little purpose.

First of all, there was little agreement in the first few centuries of Christianity about the details of Jesus. There was a wild variety of different stories told which included even whether or not he lived as a physical being or merely was an apparition that seemed to exist. That last opinion I mentioned was held by the Docetic Christians and they were a serious problem for what became the Orthodox view if the Bible is any indication. There are not one but two condemnations of the Docetics in scripture and these condemnations are not made, as one would expect, by referring them to recent history but rather in the language of faith.

1John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Additionally, this apology would seem to rely upon the assumption that the ancient world was populated by commando fact checkers that would descend upon the authors like a team of ninjas to cry "false" if there was any rabbinic scribbling that was not so.

The reality is that the path from myth to urban legend is a short one and even today, with fact checking just a Google search away, people get confused about recent history. Ronald Reagan was president within my lifetime and yet his character has been completely re-written to suit Republican adoration. Few in the GOP seem to be aware he raised taxes, cut an ran in Lebanon and made deals with Democrats.

Finally, Christianity had its critics but their works are lost to us. We only know of them as they were quoted by Christian theologians for refutation.