The root of all pain and suffering: religion.

[LivingNumbers6.626]

I remember being in what should have been the best year of my life. I was 18, just out of high school, and recently moved to San Diego for work and college.

Most persons in their youth find themselves making life long friendships their first year of college. Many even see their intellectual ability launch to new heights. Many students have the ability to freely choose their classes and accept the education without irrationality.

And last but not least, they party, and have extra money to do fun things.

Not me. I spent most of my time begging repentance for fornication, enduring systematic mental abuse by my bishop who convinced me that the devil had me prisoner, and spent my time trying to redeem myself through missionary work.

I had not the ability to do many of the things my college peers would do. Ten percent of my income went to the church and another 50% went to saving for a mission. Luckily, I had the opportunity to spend some money to enjoy time with my girlfriend (now wife).

I often entered classes with extreme cognitive dissonance. I loved school, I loved science, but since I "knew" that science could "lead me away from religion and into Satan's grasp," I found a terrible time accepting a lot of the course work. But my mind could not resist. The evidence was present and the answers were real answers, unlike in religion where answers are questions in disguise.

But never the less, I started to feel more guilty due to my acceptance of scientific fact and my apprehension towards religious sorcery.

Religion and science do not mix. One must pick one or the other, they do not rationally or reasonably blend with one another.

Ugh, what a terrible time my first year out of high school was. My money was taken from me, my intellectual freedom was non-existent, and my church was systematically brain washing me into the idea of a "full time mission" and the idea that my body and mind has been captured by the devil through fornication and masturbation.

When I look back at it, I should have just lied. I should have just been like the rest of the 18 year old boys ready to go on a mission. All of them fornicated, all of them masturbated, and a lot of them did much more. I should have just lied to get my 2 year mission and make my family proud.

But I couldn't, I had to tell the truth. After all, this is my salvation, this is the bishop of the lord who is interviewing me, and this is God's church. How can I lie? How could I live with myself?

Well, I couldn't, eventually I landed my self in a psychiatric hospital 2 months after I should have left on my two year mission.

I was in a terrible place, and having a terrible time...but luckily, I'm glad I did. Otherwise I would have wasted 2 years of my life preaching others into the same system that had manipulated me.

The Mormon Church certainly is a terrible institution.

And here is my point: I am out of church, out of religion, out of God...but it pains me to see those who are still trapped, mindfully or not.

1) My grandparents are spending the rest of their life repenting for the time in their life in which they were not Mormon.

2) My mother always feels guilty and self -conscious for no real reason.

3) My aunt will spend the rest of her life trying to redeem herself from her youthful sin.

4) My uncle will stay with his abusive wife because "god told him to."

5) My parents will feel guilty for their atheist son (me) and will forever be looking for the place "where we went wrong."

6) It is likely that my grandma-in-law will soon pass away due to her diabetes because she no longer uses medicine because God "healed" her though her last doctors appointment shows her diabetes are out of control.

7) My sister-in-law will forever avoid secular psychiatric/therapy help because some dumb ass preacher said all she needs is God and the bible.

8) My brother in-law will forever be unhappy, jumping from church to church, looking for something he will never find.

and the list goes on...and on...and on.

Then their is the world wide list regarding past and present events of disease and war perpetuated by religious reasoning.

Some days this really pains me. It hurts me to see people suffer. It hurts me to see family and peers run around in mental pain because of their abusive establishments.

And the worst part is, they may never see their doubts through, they may never be truly free.

How to I improve the living of those around me? Rational arguments don't work. Evidence doesn't work. What works?

Will the world ever be free from religious manipulation?

Call me terrible, call me unjust, call me evil, call me anti-american. But I would not mind if the government systematically destroyed all existing religions, as long as the safety and well being of its members were guaranteed. Destroy the buildings, and save the people.

That's just how I feel about it right now. I'm pretty depressed. Probably because my family will be here in an hour to visit...it often brings up so much emotion. Good emotion, empathetic emotion. I wish they would save themselves from their own misery.

Fuck the Mormon Church....

[Polaris]

The root of all pain and suffering inflicted by man upon his fellow man is the insatiable desire for power and wealth at the expense of others.

[Minimalist]

Here...consider these gifts for your healing process.

[Cato]

Might I make a recommendation? This post alone could spawn several worthwhile threads: stereotypical collegiate experience juxtaposed to Mormon religious expectations, Mormons being financialy responsible for their missions, tything, conflict of academic pursuits and church doctrine, and the LDS influence on family regarding apostates. In fact, we could have a meaningful discussion on each item in your list of 8.

If your purpose is to just get things off your chest, then so be it. Some may not read it because of the length, but I read it and find myself wanting to reply to much of it. Not parsed, my reply would easily triple the length.

How to I improve the living of those around me? Rational arguments don't work. Evidence doesn't work. What works?

I wanted to reply to an earlier thread of yours, but can't honestly remember if I did. My situation is different in that my brother became Mormon about 22 years ago. My mother followed suit a decade later. I have spent a fair amount of time researching Mormonism, although as I've told my Mormon family members, it would be unfair to categorize my activity as investigating the church. Think of it more as stockpiling intellectual ammunition.

To answer your question, reason won't work when it comes to LDS doctrine. Mormons, like most other religious people, can be perfectly reasonable in all other areas of their lives; however, toss that out when it comes to their doctrine. An anecdote...

My brother invited me to a dinner party. I had been an overnight guest of the hosts on several occasions. We enjoyed eash others' company and religion was rarely a topic of discussion. After a fabulous dinner and great conversation we adjourned to the living room, where even though I was now desperate for a cigarette and glass of port, I most looked forward to the continuing banter. My brother attempted to take a seat, but in a motion that can only be explained by him having springs in his ass, took center stage to ask an important question. "Why is reason given superiority over revelation?".

The hosts, with an obvious polite deference to me, attempted to pass it off; however, my brother sensing a homefield advantage demanded an answer. I winked at my hosts and said, "Perfectly reasonable question which I'm prepared to answer".

I slowly stood up, grabbed my zipper and calmly asserted, "I bet you have ten good reasons why I shouldn't reveal myself this once."

Leave the heavy philosophical conversations for one-on-ones or an environment where it's expected, but there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't assert yourself in a crowd with a lighthearted tone. It's been over an hour so I may be too late....

You can still enjoy the company of family and friends despite your apostasy, just avoid the issue. There's plenty more to discuss. If someone presses, do your best to deflect; a joke always helps. If someone crosses the line into being rude you will likely have others around you to help defuse the situation. If there's not another sympathetic soul, all cannons fire on the up row.

---

The root of all pain and suffering inflicted by man upon his fellow man is the insatiable desire for power and wealth at the expense of others.

Sounds reasonable; however, I think the pain and suffering caused by intolerance has a betable horse in this race.

[archangle]

grow up. And wake up. You either are strong enough to love your family and understand it is ok to "hate them" sometimes or you are not. It is not the a fukin church that makes your family stupid line up monkeys. Its them. You are lucky, you see it, be thankful.

[Ryantology]

The root of all pain and suffering inflicted by man upon his fellow man is the insatiable desire for power and wealth at the expense of others.

Which objectively pales in comparison to all the pain and suffering inflicted on man by random accidents, natural disasters, biological threats and other causes in which humans are not responsible and have little or no capacity to control or defend against.

Now, in a universe that is a deliberate and precise creation, in which humans had absolutely no say whatsoever, who gets the blame for these?



We do, of course!

[LivingNumbers6.626]

grow up. And wake up. You either are strong enough to love your family and understand it is ok to "hate them" sometimes or you are not. It is not the a fukin church that makes your family stupid line up monkeys. Its them. You are lucky, you see it, be thankful.

I'm not entirely sure if you understand the destruction created by the Mormon church. It has a way of finding extremely intelligent persons, and conning them out of their money.

The reason why the church is filthy rich is because of the intelligence there in. They know how to sling money. I wouldn't exactly call them monkeys, but victims.

This has nothing to do with coming to terms with their beliefs, it has to deal with the nature of those beliefs and how they destroy their cognitive peace.

I had displayed two sentiments revealing my (1) thankfulness and (2) empathy.

So please do not mistake my post as disdain, because that was not at all the proposition.

The ultimate proposition or question I intend is "how do we improve the lives of those inflected with superstition? is there a method to cure the world of pain caused my religion, specifically.

---

Here...consider these gifts for your healing process.

Haha, thank you

---

Might I make a recommendation? This post alone could spawn several worthwhile threads: stereotypical collegiate experience juxtaposed to Mormon religious expectations, Mormons being financialy responsible for their missions, tything, conflict of academic pursuits and church doctrine, and the LDS influence on family regarding apostates. In fact, we could have a meaningful discussion on each item in your list of 8.

If your purpose is to just get things off your chest, then so be it. Some may not read it because of the length, but I read it and find myself wanting to reply to much of it. Not parsed, my reply would easily triple the length.

How to I improve the living of those around me? Rational arguments don't work. Evidence doesn't work. What works?

I wanted to reply to an earlier thread of yours, but can't honestly remember if I did. My situation is different in that my brother became Mormon about 22 years ago. My mother followed suit a decade later. I have spent a fair amount of time researching Mormonism, although as I've told my Mormon family members, it would be unfair to categorize my activity as investigating the church. Think of it more as stockpiling intellectual ammunition.

To answer your question, reason won't work when it comes to LDS doctrine. Mormons, like most other religious people, can be perfectly reasonable in all other areas of their lives; however, toss that out when it comes to their doctrine. An anecdote...

My brother invited me to a dinner party. I had been an overnight guest of the hosts on several occasions. We enjoyed eash others' company and religion was rarely a topic of discussion. After a fabulous dinner and great conversation we adjourned to the living room, where even though I was now desperate for a cigarette and glass of port, I most looked forward to the continuing banter. My brother attempted to take a seat, but in a motion that can only be explained by him having springs in his ass, took center stage to ask an important question. "Why is reason given superiority over revelation?".

The hosts, with an obvious polite deference to me, attempted to pass it off; however, my brother sensing a homefield advantage demanded an answer. I winked at my hosts and said, "Perfectly reasonable question which I'm prepared to answer".

I slowly stood up, grabbed my zipper and calmly asserted, "I bet you have ten good reasons why I shouldn't reveal myself this once."

Leave the heavy philosophical conversations for one-on-ones or an environment where it's expected, but there's absolutely no reason you shouldn't assert yourself in a crowd with a lighthearted tone. It's been over an hour so I may be too late....

You can still enjoy the company of family and friends despite your apostasy, just avoid the issue. There's plenty more to discuss. If someone presses, do your best to deflect; a joke always helps. If someone crosses the line into being rude you will likely have others around you to help defuse the situation. If there's not another sympathetic soul, all cannons fire on the up row.

---

The root of all pain and suffering inflicted by man upon his fellow man is the insatiable desire for power and wealth at the expense of others.

Sounds reasonable; however, I think the pain and suffering caused by intolerance has a betable horse in this race.

Thank you for your input, I will certainly be putting your anecdote to heart. I sincerely hope your brother finds his way out someday.

---

I agree with all those who had said that pain and suffering is inherent more in mankind in general than just religion. Sometimes I get a bit irrational and exaggerated. But I still believe that religion is something that should be reduced, and something that may be easily reducible.

[Minimalist]

Haha, thank you

And there, is a lesson. Religion needs to be laughed at. Its adherents have a hard time with ridicule.

[Jenny A]

Not laughed at exactly, but not given respect beyond what any other belief is given. No one says, he's a Democrat (or Republican) and you have to respect his beliefs. Only religion is given that status. That we should stop. All beliefs should be questionable.

[Cato]

I'm pretty sure we need to at least laugh at the religions that demand their flock wear underoos.