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RE: Why are deists so annoying?
August 7, 2014 at 3:43 pm
Quote:When I see the universe, I see a machine.
But does this tell you who made the machine, or specifically that a god made the machine?
Quote: When I behold our progress toward higher reason and civilization, I see intent.
But who's (or what's) intent?
God is, strictly speaking, a non-sequitur from both angles as stated. Accepting both will not yield even so much as a deistic "god". More is required (and I know that you have more, obviously)... I imagine that it is this "more" that Napo is wondering about.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why are deists so annoying?
August 7, 2014 at 3:45 pm
This whole thread is nothing but confusion for me now.
I don't understand why DP (or anyone) would be a deist. I don't understand why Napo and Blackout (or anyone)care to understand so much. I don't understand why Jenny (or anyone) would care that someone care so much. I feel like almost every post in the last few pages has been completely pointless.
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RE: Why are deists so annoying?
August 7, 2014 at 3:47 pm
(August 7, 2014 at 3:45 pm)Losty Wrote: This whole thread is nothing but confusion for me now.
I don't understand why DP (or anyone) would be a deist. I don't understand why Napo and Blackout (or anyone)care to understand so much. I don't understand why Jenny (or anyone) would care that someone care so much. I feel like almost every post in the last few pages has been completely pointless.
Nah, you learned some Internet acronyms, not all is lost.
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RE: Why are deists so annoying?
August 7, 2014 at 3:47 pm
(This post was last modified: August 7, 2014 at 3:49 pm by Napoléon.)
(August 7, 2014 at 3:45 pm)Losty Wrote: I don't understand why Napo and Blackout (or anyone)care to understand so much.
Well, this is what Jenny was basically having a go at me for. "Why should we question when it doesn't serve a purpose"? Just because you don't see the purpose doesn't mean there isn't one. Can't I be genuinely curious about why a seemingly rational person chooses to believe something irrational? Is it wrong for my to try and highlight areas in their logic where I think they're contradicting themselves? Yeah, again, I don't buy into that. I guess some people see it as pointless, I don't.
I must admit though, I've probably posted too much in this thread. I just can't stop though, every time someone makes a point that I disagree with, I just have to respond. Maybe that's my irrational side coming out.
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RE: Why are deists so annoying?
August 7, 2014 at 3:49 pm
LOL< meh, who knows the hearts of men?
Perhaps Napo is simply curious as to how a person he respects, and a person who is so adept at wielding the blade, so to speak - could himself fall victim to what he percieves as precisely the sorts of thinking we see DP disassemble so brilliantly. I often wonder the same, for the pure joy of wondering.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why are deists so annoying?
August 7, 2014 at 3:50 pm
lol, beat me to it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Why are deists so annoying?
August 7, 2014 at 3:51 pm
(August 7, 2014 at 3:47 pm)Napoléon Wrote: (August 7, 2014 at 3:45 pm)Losty Wrote: I don't understand why Napo and Blackout (or anyone)care to understand so much.
Well, this is what Jenny was basically having a go at me for. "Why should we question when it doesn't serve a purpose"? Just because you don't see the purpose doesn't mean there isn't one. Can't I be genuinely curious about why a seemingly rational person chooses to believe something irrational? Is it wrong for my to try and highlight areas in their logic where I think they're contradicting themselves? Yeah, again, I don't buy into that. I guess some people see it as pointless, I don't.
No I just don't understand why you care. I'm not saying it is wrong that you care. I wasn't trying to imply that you shouldn't care or that you shouldn't have asked. It was just pointless for me, I guess. I feel like I haven't learned anything (accept for the acronyms).
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RE: Why are deists so annoying?
August 7, 2014 at 3:54 pm
(August 7, 2014 at 3:51 pm)Losty Wrote: No I just don't understand why you care. I'm not saying it is wrong that you care. I wasn't trying to imply that you shouldn't care or that you shouldn't have asked. It was just pointless for me, I guess. I feel like I haven't learned anything (accept for the acronyms).
Like Rhythm said, I respect DP immensely, and a large part of why I'm so curious comes from the fact he's so intelligent, yet, as far as I'm concerned, holds an irrational viewpoint. I've met many deists in real life who are equally as intelligent, my sister for one. However, I've had the argument with her, or discussion, and her answers were just as unsatisfactory to me as what DP's are here. I'm not saying the answers are necessarily wrong in any way, but they are quite infuriating to me as I just don't understand how a person would console those particular answers when they are perfectly rational in every other department but believing in god.
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RE: Why are deists so annoying?
August 7, 2014 at 3:54 pm
Let me get to the last part first...
(August 7, 2014 at 3:36 pm)Blackout Wrote: Don't see this as a personal attack, just sheer curiosity from a non believer. I don't. Discussions of beliefs should never be personal. I hope I haven't upset anyone. It was not my intent.
Quote:You don't seem to hold beliefs regarding an existence after our death, post mortem, of any kind, nor do you seem to believe in ghosts, spirits, haunted houses, souls...
I've not known many deists but the ones I have exchanged ideas with have a similar skepticism of spirits and the afterlife. I don't know what the correlation is but I can tell you I'm not the only one.
Quote:So why believe in the first place?
Let me try to do better than I did with Napoleon.
I've written this before and it seems to convey the sentiment: I look at the universe and see a machine. I reflect on our progress as a species, both in terms of our development of higher reasoning and in our civilization, and see some mysterious intent.
My deism is an expression of my sense of awe and wonder at the natural universe. These feelings aren't rational. I've never said otherwise. This is what I mean by "instinctive".
I've also written elsewhere that deism is a sort of truce between my skeptical mind and more lofty sentiments. I thus have a "spirituality" that is firmly grounded in the natural universe. The intro to some of my videos contains the caption: "Deism: Because the Natural Universe Is Enough".
Atheists have shared the same sense of awe. Dawkins, Harris, Sagan and even the curmudgeonly Hitchens have expressed similar feelings. They just don't "need" to use the word "God".
I hope I did better this time.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
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... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Why are deists so annoying?
August 7, 2014 at 3:56 pm
Now it is clear. But... Isn't that pretty much pantheism? You seem to be making the case of the universe being god because of it's wonder... That sounds like pantheism to me.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
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