Why are deists so annoying?

[DeistPaladin]

But does this tell you who made the machine, or specifically that a god made the machine?
...
But who's (or what's) intent?

God is, strictly speaking, ...

...the mysterious X-factor, the enigmatic mind behind it.

---

Now it is clear. But... Isn't that pretty much pantheism? You seem to be making the case of the universe being god because of it's wonder... That sounds like pantheism to me.

A hair-splitting distinction.

Pantheism is the belief that God IS the universe, as opposed to some unknown mind behind it.

But I think you've got the gist.

And yes, it's a fallacious appeal to wonder. That's why I cop to it being instinctive and not a matter of reason.

And since the practical application is the same, I don't even correct anyone who calls me an atheist anymore. Anyone who would use the term as a pejorative isn't going to comprehend the distinction anyway.

[Dystopia]

If you believe in an intelligent mind behind it, you're a deist, if you believed the universe is god because of it's wonder and awesomeness or beauty you're an pantheist. You could also be a panentheist, if you believe the universe is god and that god exists outside of the universe... That brings the question, do you believe in an intelligent mind outside of time and space?

[DeistPaladin]

Like Rhythm said, I respect DP immensely, and a large part of why I'm so curious comes from the fact he's so intelligent, yet, as far as I'm concerned, holds an irrational viewpoint. I've met many deists in real life who are equally as intelligent, my sister for one. However, I've had the argument with her, or discussion, and her answers were just as unsatisfactory to me as what DP's are here. I'm not saying the answers are necessarily wrong in any way, but they are quite infuriating to me as I just don't understand how a person would console those particular answers when they are perfectly rational in every other department but believing in god.

Likewise and I hope I did better the second time around with Blackout. If I seem to struggle, it's only because you're asking me to put emotional/sentimental/instinctive concepts into words.

[Napoléon]

Likewise and I hope I did better the second time around with Blackout. If I seem to struggle, it's only because you're asking me to put emotional/sentimental/instinctive concepts into words.

Yeah, fair enough, I realise now it's hard to do.

[Tonus]

I can actually appreciate this one
I just can't keep up with all these. First world problems.

Don't you mean FWP?

[Napoléon]

I can actually appreciate this one
I just can't keep up with all these. First world problems.

Don't you mean FWP?

Don't you mean: DYM FWP.

[Tonus]

Regarding "why care" about something: I had a period where I didn't quite let go of my god beliefs based entirely on emotional-type thinking. It would not have changed me much to remain in that hazy place and presume that I was a deist. But I don't think I'd have been happy if I didn't scratch that particular itch. I think that skepticism works against the way our minds want to work. But sometimes we need to scratch that itch.

[DeistPaladin]

If you believe in an intelligent mind behind it, you're a deist, if you believed the universe is god because of it's wonder and awesomeness or beauty you're an pantheist. You could also be a panentheist, if you believe the universe is god and that god exists outside of the universe...

I've heard of that. I wouldn't adopt that label because I don't perceive an omnipresent god. I tend to avoid "omni" words anyway because of their inherent contradiction.

I'm sure you've heard the paradox about an omnipotent god trying to create a rock that even he can't lift or an omniscient god trying to figure out how to get lost. The "omni" descriptions are inherently paradoxical and therefore can't exist.

That brings the question, do you believe in an intelligent mind outside of time and space?

As we know it?

Time and space came into being some 13.7 billion years ago, or so we currently conclude with the evidence at hand. What was around before then? How can we speak rationally of "before" time or a "what" before space? So there was a creation. If there was also a creator behind the creation, it would have to have been in some proto-universe. Or alternate universe? Are there multiple universes? Can we even speak of multiple universes when "universe" by definition means everything?

Sorry, I'm musing as I type. Deism doesn't stop the search, as many atheists sometimes express concern over.

---

Regarding "why care" about something: I had a period where I didn't quite let go of my god beliefs based entirely on emotional-type thinking. It would not have changed me much to remain in that hazy place and presume that I was a deist. But I don't think I'd have been happy if I didn't scratch that particular itch. I think that skepticism works against the way our minds want to work. But sometimes we need to scratch that itch.

For a lot of deconverting Christians, deism is a way-station on the way to atheism. Nature's God must seem really cold compared to the personal love of Jesus. Like Honey-badger, Nature's God don't give a shit.

I was never a Christian, which is probably why I've been more stable in my deism.

[Jenny A]

I don't understand why Napo and Blackout (or anyone)care to understand so much.

Well, this is what Jenny was basically having a go at me for. "Why should we question when it doesn't serve a purpose"? Just because you don't see the purpose doesn't mean there isn't one. Can't I be genuinely curious about why a seemingly rational person chooses to believe something irrational? Is it wrong for my to try and highlight areas in their logic where I think they're contradicting themselves? Yeah, again, I don't buy into that. I guess some people see it as pointless, I don't.

I must admit though, I've probably posted too much in this thread. I just can't stop though, every time someone makes a point that I disagree with, I just have to respond. Maybe that's my irrational side coming out.

I just couldn't figure out where you thought you were going. Not all beliefs are rational. And when they aren't, the guy holding the belief may not know why. I just got irritated watching you two say the same things to each other over and over.

You know the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result the next time.

I'll give you my husband's line about superstition and God if you like. He says, "yes I know knocking on wood doesn't do anything. But no matter how much water of rationality, I pour over the problem, my gut still believes it's necessary." I guess I understand his gut. It's not an argument for anyone else to knock on wood. But in the end, it lowers his blood pressure, so let him knock.

[The Grand Nudger]

Uh-huh...so, the ritual abuse of the corpses of trees(whove done nothing to him, I'd wager) factors heavily in his superstitions and general peace of mind does it? The man is clearly a deeply, deeply terrible person - and reminds me quite a bit of jesus. I say we string him up -from a synthetic yardarm, of course.