Paranoia in christians

[ShaMan]

I want to know if anyone else here has scene the Paranoia I mentioned among this particular group.

Yes, and it is precisely for this reason that I've discontinued my attendance at any and all Christian gatherings. If it weren't so dysfunctional it'd almost be pitiable.

[vorlon13]

The OP made it clear he is not a "We're RIGHT, you're WRONG" kind of Christian.

I find it puzzling to aspire to a tepid, lukewarm, no fire in the belly kind of religion, denigrate those who in fact have, and revel in the insipidness of ones own ersatz, homogenized, pasteurized, bowdlerized, cleaned, sanitized and innocuous religious pap.

What IS the point ??

Being as I am no longer constrained by my tepid religion I would answer thus.

None of your fuckin' business

He's told you "the point", it gives him a support network. That's enough of a "point" for him. You don't think it's enough? That's fine. Doesn't have to be.

He's not telling us what our religion should be. He went out of his way to make that clear. I think that's a courtesy we might reciprocate.
[/quote]



Just as a general thing here, I think it would be best for the religious cause if apostates refrained from posting. (At least from a pro-religion standpoint)

Maybe we need a special forum for pro-religion apostates ?? Might get a little bloody for them however, the actual Faithful will be all over them along with the atheists. I'd advise dumping all the buffet and cafeteria Christians there too.

Christians seem overmatched here as it is, having vociferous heretics munging up the christian side would seem to be an unnecessary self inflicted wound, yet the bleeding obviousness of that seems lost on at least a few of them.

Sad, really . . . . .

[downbeatplumb]

On faith, church and politics, that's a heady combination! But in England it was that mix that drove, in a sadly violent and bloody way, the introduction of democracy in the British civil wars. It drove the establishment of the trade unions, and the introduction of the welfare state. It drove the introduction of the Children's Act which protected children from harsh labour and ensured they had a rudimentary education. It drove the anti-slavery movement, and then gave the emancipated people a voice (they could use the Bible themselves, and learned how to do it powerfully). In England it was the churches (and especially the non-conformist ones) that drove social changes very much for the better. It even inspired Mary Wollstonecraft to begin what would later be known as the 'feminist' movement. It's hard to imagine what England would have been like without people first being empowered by the bible in English, and then by taking those positions of faith into the parliament they fought, died and killed for, and then into the cities which had fallen into a desperate state of poverty and slum conditions. Politics and faith can be a good mix, especially when in the hands of the ordinary people.

Well Christians did these things as everyone was a Christian in England at the time BUT (the Civil war aside) to say Christianity inspired these Victorian reforms begs the question as to why it hadn't inspired them in the 1800 years previous to that.

The truth is society had changed and had become more humanistic and secular and it was this rather than religion that brought forth the changes.

Good people did good things despite the bible not because of it.

[ShaMan]

Good people did good things despite the bible not because of it.

[Michael]

Plum. A reasonable case can be made that it didn't happen earlier because ordinary folk couldn't use the bible in their struggles, as it was not generally available to them. Cromwell and his New Model Army were working from the bible, that all men were equal (well, nearly equal for Cromwell as he still insisted that only those with land could vote, but other Puritans in the 'Putney debates' were calling for one man one vote; though it was, of course, literally one 'man' in those days).

Or looking at it from another angle, those indigenous people who did not adopt the bible, such as American natives, never made the progress that other groups, such as the negro slaves, made by working with, rather than against, the bible. Blacks in America are nearly totally emancipated; their native American brothers and sisters still effectively live under Apartheid in the 21st century; 2nd class citizens in their own land.

European and American history in the 17th to 19th century turned around the newly available English language bible. We can't look at those centuries through secular spectacles; that is such an anachronism.

IMO, of course.

[ShaMan]

Or looking at it from another angle, those indigenous people who did not adopt the bible, such as American natives, never made the progress that other groups, such as the negro slaves, made by working with, rather than against, the bible.

(bold added)
The red man's definition of 'progress' differs from that of other cultures. What you call progress we call genocide.

[Jacob(smooth)]

Just as a general thing here, I think it would be best for the religious cause if apostates refrained from posting. (At least from a pro-religion standpoint)

Maybe we need a special forum for pro-religion apostates ?? Might get a little bloody for them however, the actual Faithful will be all over them along with the atheists. I'd advise dumping all the buffet and cafeteria Christians there too.

Christians seem overmatched here as it is, having vociferous heretics munging up the christian side would seem to be an unnecessary self inflicted wound, yet the bleeding obviousness of that seems lost on at least a few of them.

Sad, really . . . . .

Bless. You're cute when you're pouty.

Here's the thing slick. Not everyone holds every view their "set" espouses. The op is a Christian but does not hold to all the same views as every other Christian. I'm an atheist but reserve the right to believe that sometimes atheists act like judgemental and arrogant donkeys. You see how that works?

Just have a little think about what you suggested there. Ex Christians should not post here? You want a special forum for Ex Christians?! As opposed to what, pure blooded never believed in God atheists? Seriously?

Or is that just for anyone with the temerity to disagree with you? How very dare we. Apostates criticising atheists. For shame.

Let me be very clear here, using small words. What I did there was not taking "sides". It was not supporting "the Christian side" or attacking the atheist "side" . It was criticising your post. The op, a fairly new forum member, asked a perfectly reasonable question and instead of discussing it you chose to have a pop at his stated beliefs in rather pejorative and callow terms. Whether you are a Christian, atheist or undecided, that seems a bit of a dick move to me, argumentum ad hominem and that.

Happily for all of us, you get to criticise his religion, and I get to criticise your post. Unless of course the staff decide to follow your suggestion and confine ex Christians to their own part of the forum

[Goosebump]

I believe a lot of the rise in heated rhetoric from the christian community, that by no coincidence takes the form of a persecution narrative, is wholesale in response to the erosion of special privilege the christian church has received in the United States since it's founding.

By special privilege and it's erosion I mean:
1. “In God we Trust” on the currency, not in Allah or Yahweh or any other term disassociated with the Christian god or even “In a God we Trust” allowing for multiple theologies to make a claim on that trust.
2. “I pledge allegiance to the flag... one nation under God...” just as the above a deliberate reference to the christian god.
3. Dominance in culture leading to cultural influence and political power.
4. The domination of christian morality in legislature now diminished, Roe v Wade, Same Sex marriage.

So the cry of persecution has been taken up to rally Christianity to combat a culture that no longer looks to Christianity for it's basis. That's why we see outlandish requests for exemption or “special privilege” for Christianity such as the Hobby Lobby case. The Law is the Law for everybody, unless your christian.

It's an expectation of exceptionalism, which is then translated into law. Which I find very frightening in a country one of whom's key tenets is the separation of the church and it's morality with the elected government as a reflection of the overall cultural morality of that nation.

[christianatheist]

Hey, just to clear something up, I'm not a christian.
I go to church, but I'm definitely not a christian.
I go to church because if I didn't, my family would be quite mean and it would destroy the family.

[Polaris]

I am refering to the hardcore "I'm right your wrong" christians.

Wait.


You're saying there is another kind?

Yeah, most Christians. You know the type you would meet if you socialized with people. Not the type of Christians you are picturing in your head, you know the ones who act exactly like you do.