Cain and Abel: Explanation Please. Pretty Pretty Please!

[vorlon13]

I suppose it depends on the goat ??

[Surgenator]

I suppose it depends on the goat ??

Before the invention of BBQ sause, I don't think so.

[Tonus]

But god is finds favor only in meat. God apparently demands blood.

But why does Cain get a pass with just exile and a you can't kill me card?

Maybe those two are related? Abel offers up blood, Cain offers up plants, and god selects blood. So Cain kills Abel and god is like "well, you shouldn't have killed your brother but, damn... BLOOD. I'll give you this one. I'm both upset and impressed."

[Jenny A]

So what is the moral lesson of Cain and Abel?

Cain and Abel both make sacrifices to god. Abel is a hunter and brings meat. . . yum meat. Cain is a farmer and brings vegetables and grain. . . yum, yum, bread. But god is finds favor only in meat. God apparently demands blood. WHY?

The sacrifice of blood was established by God at the fall where He took an animal and killed it to literally cover what the sins of Adam and eve exposed.

From that moment on the shedding of blood was repersentive of the cost of sin.

Um? Are we reading the same Bible? God does not take the life any animal at the moment of the fall, though he did decree that Adam and Eve's life would be hard and that they would be mortal and die. He also curses the serpent and in a just-so sort of passage takes away it's legs. --- Or are you extrapolating from "And the Lord God made garments of skins for Adam and his wife, and clothed them." Genesis 3:21

This is like a father looking at the little hand made clay gifts of two sons and throwing bouquets at one and rejecting the other. What kind of good father would do that?

'We' are not God's children. Christ is. It is through Christ that we are 'adopted' by God. We are all sons and daughters of Adam and Eve.

God did not instruct his children, God instructed an ebolia patient in a sterialization process that one followed and the other did not. The one that followed instructions was welcomed, the one that did not was kept at arms length.

According to the Bible, God made us. How much more like children is necessary?

And, what the heck do you mean about ebolia patients? If your meaning is that God does not tell people how the world works--I agree, the God of the Bible certainly doesn't do that. But he does tell them how to worship him repeatedly, with emphasis, and occasionally set in stone.

Next Cain kills Abel. Not good. I get that. You don't get to kill your brother because daddy loves him best. But why does Cain get a pass with just exile and a you can't kill me card?
Later in the OT the penalty for murder, let alone fratricide, is death. Why doesn't Cain have to pay that price?

Did you see the movie noah? I think they got it right in that their was a division between the sons of cain and the sons of seth. Cain got a 'pass' because he was needed to contribute to the events that were to come.
History is not made up of only the sucessful, but rather the most vauable lessons history can teach are of short commings and failures.

No I didn't see Noah. The reviews are not promising. ---- So Cain got a pass so that he could father those other nasty people who didn't get to go in the ark? Seems an odd proceeding.

It seems to me that this is a tale about the arbitrariness of fate, not an all loving god. Anyone care to explain it differently?

What in the bible makes you believe that God is all loving?

"Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:8 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16 " For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing. And you are to love those who are aliens, for you yourselves were aliens in Egypt." Deuteronomy 10:17-19 "But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness." Psalm 86:15

---- Speaking of sacrificial bribes. . .

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Jenny. Abel chose the best of his crops to offer back to God. Cain did not choose the best of his herd. Abel, but not Cain, found favour because he reserved the best for God. It's a wisdom tale about bringing the best of what God graces us with back to God, putting God first in our lives (out of recognition that without God we would have, and be, nothing). We then have a tale about the destructive force of envy, consuming Cain to the point of murder. Envy is, in many respects, the opposite of love; we find angst, and not happiness, in the good fortune of others. When envious, we no longer seek the best for others; rather we may seek to deprive others of that which we cannot have ourselves. It drags down people and society (even to the point of murder), rather than love which lifts up everyone (the lover and the loved).

It's as good an explanation as any I guess, though the difference in quality of gift really is not emphasized in the verses. The real difference appears to be meat versus vegetables.

Certainly it is a tale of envy. It's the root cause of the envy that puzzled me. But god's decision to grace some but not others has always puzzled me.

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So what is the moral lesson of Cain and Abel?

Cain and Abel both make sacrifices to god. Abel is a hunter and brings meat. . . yum meat. Cain is a farmer and brings vegetables and grain. . . yum, yum, bread. But god is finds favor only in meat. God apparently demands blood. WHY?

You should notice that Cain is not mentioned in the genealogy of Adam which means he was not Adams son.

Really? I don't think so:

" Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth[c] a man.” Later she gave birth to his brother Abel." Genesis 4:1-2

"Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh." Genesis 4:25-26

The original sin was not about Eve eating fruit, but was about her having sexual relations with the serpent (before he was cursed, he was humanoid, not a snake). She then had sex with Adam, which is what caused them to realize they were naked.

Really? I can see the possible innuendo, but that's not what the Bible says and Genesis isn't shy of directly addressing sex. There is nothing about anyone having sex with the serpent or in connection with the fall except that they noticed they were naked.

The Bible says that "By faith Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain". In other words, Abel had a revelation that the original sin was a "blood" sin (which is what semen is) and only blood could atone for it, but Cain thought the original sin was about fruit, therefore he offered fruit as a sacrifice.

Semen ain't blood, and you'll have to find me that garden of Edan sex, because I sure don't see it.

There is nothing about "By faith" Abel's sacrifice was better. What I do see is that god saw what Cain might do before he did it:

"Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Genesis 4:6-7

[RobbyPants]

Oops, yes. Other way around :-) Abel offered the best, the fat portions of the first born, of his flock. Cain did not offer the best of his crops, just some of his crops.

So, it's basically a pissing match to see who can give God the most stuff that he doesn't need, or, who can be the most wasteful.

How stupid.

[Jenny A]

There are two purposes to the story. The first is the illustration of man's fall with the introduction of human death. The first human death is not a natural death of age, but one brought about by violence and malice. This illustrates that man has become a fallen being.

I've also heard priests and rabbis place a great deal of emphasis on Cain's question to God, "am I my brothers keeper?" Some like to say that this sets up the idea that yes, humans are there to watch and take care of each other.

Those are both very good explanations for why we are told of the murder. The question I have is why did god treat the offerings differently? And second, why god gave Cain protection?

[The Grand Nudger]

“Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

Excellent foreshadowing, eh?

[vorlon13]

I'm probably digressing, but it occurs to me, Bible stories, such as the Cain and Abel one in this thread, that cause too much confusion, or cast religion in a bad light, will go out of 'rotation' in the Christer Biblical Cafeteria Church, and easier to defend tales will be trotted out to replace them.

In a way, AF is helping the Scripture cherry pickers to refine their game.

[The Grand Nudger]

I can't see Cain and Abel disappearing. It's pretty good. There used to be a bunch of them with added or removed this and that's - but this is the version that's survived the test of time. I think it's a monument to craft.

[Huggy Bear]

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You should notice that Cain is not mentioned in the genealogy of Adam which means he was not Adams son.

---

Really? I don't think so:

" Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth[c] a man.” Later she gave birth to his brother Abel." Genesis 4:1-2

"Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth,[h] saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh." Genesis 4:25-26

I showed where the Bible clearly state that "Cain was of that wicked one", he was not Adams son.

It WAS sex that caused it, which is why Jesus had to be born of a virgin, to restore everything back to how it was in the beginning, everything must run in continuity. We are in a fallen state because we are hybridized, in nature hybridization brings death (sterility). Adam had the power to form people out of the dust of the earth just like he was, (sex was not in the original plan) but lost that power when he fell.

The Bible states that Jesus Christ (aka second Adam) upon his return, will call up those that are "dead in Christ" back up from the dust like they were supposed to be in the beginning.

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The original sin was not about Eve eating fruit, but was about her having sexual relations with the serpent (before he was cursed, he was humanoid, not a snake). She then had sex with Adam, which is what caused them to realize they were naked.

---

Really? I can see the possible innuendo, but that's not what the Bible says and Genesis isn't shy of directly addressing sex. There is nothing about anyone having sex with the serpent or in connection with the fall except that they noticed they were naked.

The Bible has a way of saying things that not everyone will understand.
Are not "fruit" the ovaries of a plant?

Luke 10:21
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

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The Bible says that "By faith Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice than Cain". In other words, Abel had a revelation that the original sin was a "blood" sin (which is what semen is) and only blood could atone for it, but Cain thought the original sin was about fruit, therefore he offered fruit as a sacrifice.

---

Semen ain't blood, and you'll have to find me that garden of Edan sex, because I sure don't see it.

Were talking Biblical, the Bible states that "life is in the blood".

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

There is nothing about "By faith" Abel's sacrifice was better. What I do see is that god saw what Cain might do before he did it:

"Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” Genesis 4:6-7

Hebrews 11:4

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


Were talking Biblical, the Bible states that "life is in the blood