Is traditionalism bullshit?

[Jackalope]

My ancestors valued their tradition of peace with the Earth. That's worth keeping.

Yes, but because of it's virtue, not because it is tradition. "We've always done it this way." is a shitty reason to do pretty much anything.

[ShaMan]

"We've always done it this way." is a shitty reason to do pretty much anything.

The wife likes it on top. I see no reason to change

[Anomalocaris]

"We've always done it this way." is a shitty reason to do pretty much anything.

The wife likes it on top. I see no reason to change

That's because the bottom continues to be a good place for you to be, not because your wife had always been on top.

[Dystopia]

My ancestors valued their tradition of peace with the Earth. That's worth keeping.

Yes, but because of it's virtue, not because it is tradition. "We've always done it this way." is a shitty reason to do pretty much anything.

I agree but the fact a certain virtue as you describe it is accompanied and promoted by the fact that it is a tradition is also helpful, when something is a tradition it creates a sense of belonging and fulfilment between humans/participants, and if it's a good habit it's worth keeping.

I identify tradition with something that is usually done by a certain group of people under certain circumstances. If a tradition is ok or good, then we should keep it, if it's harmful or bad (infringes human rights), then we should ditch it.

On the other hand, I also see that some people start doing stuff because of tradition - Because it has always been done like this - And then end up enjoying and feel a sense of fulfilment - I see nothing wrong with that.

[Elskidor]

I want one of these damned countries to go back to having a King of Queen with actual power, but not because I particularly think that system works best, but the term King and Queen just sounds so much more cooler and important than President. Hell, follow the basic system that's already in place, but pimp the white house to look like a castle and vote in a king. If he's good enough then keep him/her around a couple decades and then give their child a try at the oval off...err.. throne room. Hmm, if the offspring don't work out then boot them and elect stewards until come the days of a new and proper King/Queen.

[paulpablo]

My ancestors valued their tradition of peace with the Earth. That's worth keeping.

Who were your ancestors?

[psychoslice]

Tradition can be good if we realize that its just that, a tradition. If we get too caught up in tradition we will never grow beyond that, we will always be trying to protect it, and hence we have religions that will not shift from their traditional beliefs, that are far out of date.

[Jackalope]

Yes, but because of it's virtue, not because it is tradition. "We've always done it this way." is a shitty reason to do pretty much anything.

I agree but the fact a certain virtue as you describe it is accompanied and promoted by the fact that it is a tradition is also helpful, when something is a tradition it creates a sense of belonging and fulfilment between humans/participants, and if it's a good habit it's worth keeping.

I identify tradition with something that is usually done by a certain group of people under certain circumstances. If a tradition is ok or good, then we should keep it, if it's harmful or bad (infringes human rights), then we should ditch it.

On the other hand, I also see that some people start doing stuff because of tradition - Because it has always been done like this - And then end up enjoying and feel a sense of fulfilment - I see nothing wrong with that.

Of course there isn't - but the dividing line is positive/nnottive not tradition/non-tradition. I don't oppose positive traditions - just the harmful ones.

[Jackalope]

Tradition can be good if we realize that its just that, a tradition. If we get too caught up in tradition we will never grow beyond that, we will always be trying to protect it, and hence we have religions that will not shift from their traditional beliefs, that are far out of date.

You know, I've disagreed with you on a fair number of things, but this - this is solid fucking gold.

[genkaus]

Can you think of any more bullshit traditions and things that conservatives will get pissy about?

You talking just US or around the world?

---

The main argument for traditionalism, and it is not an argument that can be trivially dismissed, is in essence this: a working society is a supreme good. A traditional society clearly works, otherwise it wouldn't have lived long enough for its views to become customary and its institutions to become traditions. Since societies and human behaviors are highly complex and often difficult to thoroughly analyze and predict, breaking with what works could never be guaranteed to result in things that would work as well as before, nor could the unforeseen cost of the change be guaranteed to be less than the alleged benefit of the change.

Without going into the details about the basis of society and other possible foundational objections, the counter-argument to this would be:

The idea that "a working society is a supreme good" is too simplistic. A society should not just work, it should have a reasonable expectation that it'd keep working. And from examining different societies, we see that the work to different degrees. For example, if a military society decides to wipe out a peaceful one, the idea that "the peaceful society's current traditions work" doesn't indicate a supreme good. Another measure would be whether the society works for just a few of its members or most of them would also indicate a graded level of how "good" it is.

Given we have ample samples available, past and present, we can make judgments about what works, what doesn't work and what would work better. The idea of sticking to a current tradition by saying "it works", without judging whether it is actually beneficial or detrimental to the society is repulsive.