Dodging theodicy: 'On Faith' panel stumbles over Haiti and God

[tackattack]

once again with the OT. Anyways, you forget I believe people aren't innocent. I'll play along though. What's more important to god feeding 10 million worms or sustaining 1 millions sinful humans? Your question is valid only with the correct perspeive on "won't". It isn't in his will to do our bidding only his.

What does seem a little absurd is the quote "believing in absolutes and thinking in systems of rules; it completely removes the need for conscious thinking." which I believe was you (I can't find the thread anymore). When you can just as easily state "believing in absolutes (like mathmatics) and thinking in systems of rules(like the laws of physics and the scientific process); it completely removes the need for conscious thinking.

[theVOID]

No people are innocent? What about infants? What have they done to sin?

There were a few hundred babies who died when their maternity ward collapsed on them in Haiti, they never left the hospital, let alone commit or think anything that could warrant sin. It's totally immoral to think that these children had done something that warranted their deaths.

Do you believe in a God that intervenes in human affairs? Where does he intervene? How is it more moral and just to intervene in those circumstances than it is to prevent the deaths of millions of people in an earthquake, something that is of his own design?

[tackattack]

What about infants? Ok fair question. Infants are not capable of rational thought, and when they are they have the propensity to choose evil more than good without guidance, that is sin.

What have they done to sin? See above nothing

It is a true tragedy that such things have happened in Haiti, however where you're so quick to blame something you don't even believe exists, I take a different approach.

Do I believe in a God that intervenes in human affair? Another fair question. Yes I do. Where does he intervene? He intervenes where his will sees fit, where he will be most glorified, through revelations to us. As to the last, because it is in his design. Without hardships and despair we would have no growth. He set for us an easy road to get to him. We refused it and went on our own rocky road. Morality and justice are human constructs that I don't attribute to my idea of God.

[chatpilot]

tackattack said:"Perhaps I'm just tired, but if you need deprogramming from any more of your fundamentalist stoic views I'd be happy to help."

Thank you,but no thank you. I have already completed my deprogramming of the whole bible in its entirety. As to the rest of your post it's nothing but a bunch of apologetic drivel which I have no respect for whatsoever. So called modern day reinterpretations of scriptures are nothing but the religionists attempts at making sense of the nonsense that is their belief in the bible and its tyrannical deity.

fr0d0 said: "You'll say the next minute that you don't give a toss anyway because you don't believe. People get killed - it's a fact of life. Life/ nature is a wonder to behold."

That first sentence is true about me fr0d0, and the second sentence is the most lucid thing I think I have seen you write in all the discussions in this entire forum. It's true people live and die all the time and of course it's a fact of life, but you don't need god anywhere in that statement. Sorry for getting off topic but I had to respond.

The Void said:"No people are innocent? What about infants? What have they done to sin?"

That is the entire message of the bible in a nutshell Void.
# Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
# Romans 5:12,14,15
Wherefore, as by one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
14.Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15.But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Thank god for his saving grace! What trash and nomadic garbage.

[theVOID]

What about infants? Ok fair question. Infants are not capable of rational thought, and when they are they have the propensity to choose evil more than good without guidance, that is sin.

Infants have the propensity to chose evil? Name me one think an infant does that could be considered evil by anyone who isn't insane.

It is a true tragedy that such things have happened in Haiti, however where you're so quick to blame something you don't even believe exists, I take a different approach.

Dude, it's called a hypothetical for a reason.

Me, if I was an Omnipotent, Omnipresent being, I would make sure that nobody who didn't deserve to die was killed by something I created. Oh, and children wouldn't be born into impoverished deserts only to spend their lives scurrying for whatever food they could find.

Yeah, i would make a far better God than Yhwh.

Do I believe in a God that intervenes in human affair? Another fair question. Yes I do. Where does he intervene? He intervenes where his will sees fit, where he will be most glorified, through revelations to us.

So he's only interested in his own glory? What an ass.

And how does that even make sense if that is the case? You think he would be more glorified telling a few people certain things in their heads or actually performing miracles and saving millions?

As to the last, because it is in his design. Without hardships and despair we would have no growth.

Yet he originally intended for that to be just the case, no hardships or despair, just life in a cosy little garden. So what was this whole 'you fucked up so every single ancestor of yours is going to pay for it' thing? Just an oversight?

Let me ask you this, if someone wrongs you would you consider it moral to punish their children and grandchildren and great grandchildren etc for their action? I would hope your answer is no, in which case why would you consider it moral when God does it? I consider the idea Tyranny.

He set for us an easy road to get to him. We refused it and went on our own rocky road.

We refused? No, according to the Bible only two people got to make the decision for every single life that would ever live. You and I are held responsible for the decisions other people made in this model. Should I be presented with the choice I would have chosen differently to Adam and Eve, yet I'm not allowed to make my decision because it was made for me thousands of years before i was born, not only that. but God also saw the need to sacrifice his son for the sins I inherited, and the decision to give my sins to his son wasn't my decision either, i would never give my sins to anyone else, especially if it meant their death, but this decision too was made before i was born, yet now i am responsible for both and if I don't accept the sacrifice on faith alone I will be sent to hell for all eternity.

Morality and justice are human constructs that I don't attribute to my idea of God.

So if God has no morals there are no moral absolutes? Then how disobeying God be wrong and why does he force eternal suffering on those who do not believe? How can he give commandments about what is right and wrong? How can there be sin at all if there is no morality from God?

[Tiberius]

What about infants? Ok fair question. Infants are not capable of rational thought, and when they are they have the propensity to choose evil more than good without guidance, that is sin.

Infants have the propensity to chose evil? Name me one think an infant does that could be considered evil by anyone who isn't insane.

Two words:

Stewie Griffin

theVOID: 0
tackattack / Adrian: 1

Sorted.

[chatpilot]

Lol Adrian, Stewie is a little bastard most of the times and thinks evil thoughts all of the time.

Void, regarding infants and the propensity to think evil what the bible teaches as I have noted above with an earlier post is that sin is inherent in all of us. Thanks to Adam and Eve we are all born in sin and culpable. That just goes to show what a dick this god would be if he really existed and all of this bullshit was true.

TheVoid wrote: "So he's only interested in his own glory? What an ass."

Ditto my friend I am with you on that assessment.

[theVOID]

Damn you Adrian, thwarted again!

[Edwardo Piet]

I don't see how Christians can compartmentalize such matters as "Evil". On the one hand God created everything and is completely omnipotent, and yet, he allows such horrible crap to go on, as the VOID said - even to infants.

If God is to be approved for allowing this shit - then how are these things "disasters"? He could stop them or prevent them from ever happening- he's omnipotent and he has infinite intelligence! So is he not responsible?! How is this an accident, if he really is the maker of all this?

If God is not to be approved of for allowing this shit - then why the fuck worship him?

EvF

[Autumnlicious]

Because he is the boss you suck up to.

Duh.