Evolution V Creation

[Rhizomorph13]

I've been thinking about this problem a lot and I could take that fucker! My kung fu is very strong!

[chatpilot]

Too funny Rhizo it's like Master Oyama who was noted for his ability to chop off bulls horns with his bare hands and is said to have actually killed a bull with a punch to the head. Fact or fiction? I don't really know but it's in his bio.

[Rhizomorph13]

I've heard some weird stories about martial artists, but never seen any of these magic feets (in person) that I couldn't work out in my mind. A friend of mine told me about an Aikido master who could stop your fist one inch from his flat palm no matter how hard you punched! I saw an Aikido master put molten lead in his mouth until it solidified on Vive Variete. The only thing I could think of was some other alloy that melted at slightly above body temperature, because I am very familiar with the effects of molten eutectic lead alloys and none of them are cool enough to place in the mouth!

Rhizo

[Violet]

Meatball what differentiates a man from a wild and untamed animal is the more advanced development of our brains and our ability to think. We have survived because we have been able to make use of what is around us in our natural habitat. We made weapons out of rocks and wood etc and have been able to adapt to an otherwise hostile environment that no animal could ever achieve with the same efficacy as a human.

Ever seen an elephant paint a picture?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk

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Or a crow making a hook?

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTtDbyQTQV0

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Whilst other animals have not done so with the same efficiency as us yet, this is not to suggest that they cannot, or that they will not eventually. We built cities before our 'cousins'... but one day our cousins could be just as capable of doing so

[Rhizomorph13]

When I See An Elephant Fly

I seen a peanut stand
And heard a rubber band
I seen a needle that winked it's eye
But I been done seen about everything
When I see a elephant fly

I seen a front porch swing
Heard a diamond ring
I seen a polka dot railroad tie
But I been done seen 'bout everything
When I see a elephant fly

I saw a clothes horse he r'ar up and buck
And they tell me that a man made a vegetable truck
I didn't see that, I only heard
But just to be sociable I'll take your word

I heard a fireside chat
I saw a baseball bat
And I just laughed til I thought I'd die
But I been done seen 'bout everything
When I see a elephant fly

But I been done seen 'bout everything
When I see a elephant fly
(With the wind)
When I see a elephant fly

[Edwardo Piet]

Rjh4,

Assuming that the Bible is right, one may conclude that humans are greater than other animals...

But... that's assuming it's right. I see no reason to believe it is at all.... I require very strong evidence to believe the sort of claims that are in the Bible.

As for whether 'man' or 'animal' is greater I'd say that there is no such thing as 'greater' other than each of our own personal subjective opinions on the matter. I know of no evidence for any objective values so in that sense there is no 'greater'.

I consider us to be animals because we are clearly much more genetically related to animals than we are to plants or viruses... and we are the most related to apes (very closely related indeed to Chimps and Bonobos), so I have no idea why we shouldn't classify ourselves as animals considering that's how other animals are classified (by being more genetically like each other than like plants of viruses....) I don't see why to separate us and make a distinction in the first place. It is classified through biology.

EvF

[Zen Badger]

So Rjh4, how old is the universe?

[rjh4 is back]

I would love to see you in a cage with a hungry and angry lion with nothing but your bare hands and then you could come back and talk to me about authority and dominion, that is if you survive.

I see others have responded well to this. I wanted to add that as I was thinking about this, my mind kept seeing a situation where the lion was already caged. I wonder if others thought about it similarly. The lion being in the cage already seems to support the authority and dominion issue. Lions do not put people in cages, people put lions in cages. And while it is true that some animals kill some people, it still seems pretty clear to me that mankind still has dominion and authority over the animals.

Put a man in a forest or other wilderness, and that man will soon lose any notion of "dominion" over the rest of nature. You either respect the flora and fauna or you are dead. You either become part of nature or you die.

Hmm...it seems to me that that has happened many times in the past and the result is an expansion of the civilized world. Seems to me that even this supports the notion of dominion over the rest of nature.

So where is the evidence that supports the Bible?

What type of evidence are you looking for? What would you accept?

And to clarify an apparent misconception on this thread.

There is no such thing as "higher" and "lower" lifeforms,

There are only lifeforms that are adapted to their niches in nature.

I disagree for reasons already stated.

Rjh4,

Assuming that the Bible is right, one may conclude that humans are greater than other animals...

I appreciate that acknowledgement, Evie. I understand most do not believe that the Bible is correct and, therefore, approach the question from an entirely different direction. All I can do is provide what I think based on my worldview.

But... that's assuming it's right. I see no reason to believe it is at all.... I require very strong evidence to believe the sort of claims that are in the Bible.

What kind of evidence would you accept in order to believe the Bible as historically accurate? What kind of evidence would you accept in order to believe the Bible is the Word of God?

As for whether 'man' or 'animal' is greater I'd say that there is no such thing as 'greater' other than each of our own personal subjective opinions on the matter. I know of no evidence for any objective values so in that sense there is no 'greater'.

I consider us to be animals because we are clearly much more genetically related to animals than we are to plants or viruses... and we are the most related to apes (very closely related indeed to Chimps and Bonobos), so I have no idea why we shouldn't classify ourselves as animals considering that's how other animals are classified (by being more genetically like each other than like plants of viruses....) I don't see why to separate us and make a distinction in the first place. It is classified through biology.

EvF

I certainly understand your position and it is certainly consistent with an evolutionary (common descent) point of view. My point is that the whole classification system is manmade anyway so even within your point of view, classifying man as an animal, while not without reasons, could be construed as being somewhat arbitrary. As I understand it, the classification system is based mostly on body structure. But one could also come up with a classification system based on intelligence (or a lot of other things) and based on that, classify man as separate and distinct from animals. Lastly, similarities in genetics does not necessarily mean related. I understand that that is the evolutionary (common descent) conclusion but it does not necessarily follow as the same thing could result from creation by God who used similar DNA sequences for similar purposes.

So Rjh4, how old is the universe?

I am surprised you do not know my position on that issue. As I have said many times before here, mine is a young earth creation position so I think the universe is 6000-10000 years old.

[leo-rcc]

Put a man in a forest or other wilderness, and that man will soon lose any notion of "dominion" over the rest of nature. You either respect the flora and fauna or you are dead. You either become part of nature or you die.

Hmm...it seems to me that that has happened many times in the past and the result is an expansion of the civilized world. Seems to me that even this supports the notion of dominion over the rest of nature.

No it doesn't. It means humans have learned to adapt to their surroundings in order to survive, by transforming their surroundings. We are doing nothing different then termites do in their hills. We do not have, nor will we ever have dominion over nature. History has taught us that on many occasion.

[rjh4 is back]

Put a man in a forest or other wilderness, and that man will soon lose any notion of "dominion" over the rest of nature. You either respect the flora and fauna or you are dead. You either become part of nature or you die.

Hmm...it seems to me that that has happened many times in the past and the result is an expansion of the civilized world. Seems to me that even this supports the notion of dominion over the rest of nature.

No it doesn't. It means humans have learned to adapt to their surroundings in order to survive, by transforming their surroundings. We are doing nothing different then termites do in their hills. We do not have, nor will we ever have dominion over nature. History has taught us that on many occasion.

Sorry about that...I failed to see where the conversation turned and then got caught up in what was said. My original position was that man was given dominion over the animals, not nature in general. You expanded the concept to all of nature which I never meant to do (since there is nothing in the Bible even to indicate that we have dominion over all of nature)...but did anyway as you pointed out. Certainly we have no dominion over weather and things like that. So to that degree, I agree with you but I still think there is evidence of mankind having dominion over animals.