I guess perhaps I address this question to theists...if God is so perfect, and created Adam and eve as perfect in his image, then why did they disobey him? If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin? I'm not talking about the stupid tree of knowledge, I'm asking how it was they were so susceptible to satan? Which leads me to another question, God created satan himself, from what I understand he was a perfect angel, then how is it he also came to sin? This seems to me God is in fact fallible, or else deliberately set us up to fail, seeing as how sin should not exist unless he made it so. As a burgeoning atheist, this is one of the biggest issues I have with theism. I wish to hear as many points of view as possible on this one, not just Christians please.
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Gods supposed perfection
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MistressD
Newbie  Religious Views: very complicated. I certainly have no true faith, perhaps but science and knowledge. But always confused 
Lemonvariable72
Copenhagen School Religious Views: Its all bullshit to keep you handing money to the usher.
You may find this quote from Ann Druyan, Carl Sagan's some food for thought as well
It's quite lengthy so I will simply link for those interested http://www.csicop.org/si/show/ann_druyan..._religion/
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.  RE: Gods supposed perfection
October 2, 2014 at 6:20 pm
(This post was last modified: October 2, 2014 at 6:22 pm by Alex K.)
The mathematician and philosopher Leibniz, in an attempt at apologetics, tried to explain this thusly - that while this world has its shortcomings, it is the best possible world for us to live in. Maybe these elements of disruption and temptation are necessary to put some kind of balance (an idea which is employed in many works of fiction, the matrix part three for example, or Babylon5). Voltaire did write an entire novel, Candide, to mock Leibniz' idea, and illustrate its absurd consequences.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
 Quote:If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin? DANGER: DANGER: DANGER: "Free Will" dissertation coming from one of the morons in 5....4.....3......2.....1................ (Free Will is god's Get-Out-Of-Fuck-Up-Free card.)
Lemonvariable72
Copenhagen School Religious Views: Its all bullshit to keep you handing money to the usher. (October 2, 2014 at 6:23 pm)Minimalist Wrote:Quote:If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin? But if god can give people prophecy that mean he knows the future and if he knows the future then the future is knowable. If the future is knowable there is no freewill.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day, To the last syllable of recorded time; And all our yesterdays have lighted fools The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, That struts and frets his hour upon the stage, And then is heard no more. It is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.
MistressD
Newbie Religious Views: very complicated. I certainly have no true faith, perhaps but science and knowledge. But always confused (October 2, 2014 at 6:23 pm)Minimalist Wrote:Holy crap for real. I have a JW friend who tries to explain this to me all the time, that he created free will and it's our choice to not follow him. Again today we had this debate, but I stumped her finally, she left with no answer and I was shocked haha. Even though we were given free will, how did the evil that tempted us away from him come to be unless he himself created it and loosed it upon us. If they were supposedly perfect, then wouldn't questioning God actually be a good thing and not a bad? She has no answer yet, and I eagerly await what she does end up saying about itQuote:If they were created without sin then how is it they came to sin?  (October 2, 2014 at 6:20 pm)Alex K Wrote: The mathematician and philosopher Leibniz, in an attempt at apologetics, tried to explain this thusly - that while this world has its shortcomings, it is the best possible world for us to live in. Maybe these elements of disruption and temptation are necessary to put some kind of balance (an idea which is employed in many works of fiction, the matrix part three for example, or Babylon5). Voltaire did write an entire novel, Candide, to mock Leibniz' idea, and illustrate its absurd consequences. Voltaire needn't have gone to the trouble. If a fallible human being can even imagine a better world than the one in which we live, then this cannot be the 'best possible' world for us. The notion of 'balance' falls rather flat as well. I can understand (although I do not agree with) the theistic position on this matter, God clearly could have designed a world is which suffering is necessary for some imagined balance, but it seems plain that a world in which the suffering takes the form of getting short changed at the grocers or the waiter spilling a drink in your lap is clearly better than a world where the suffering take the form of debilitating painful disease or the sexual abuse of children. Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
MistressD
Newbie Religious Views: very complicated. I certainly have no true faith, perhaps but science and knowledge. But always confused
Lemonvariable72 thank you for that article! I love Ann Druyan, and I feel strongly about raising my girls to love science and the search for answers
@Boru
Not so fast speedracer, How can you as a fallible human being possibly know whether this better world which you imagine is self consistent and hence possible at all?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
Obviously perfect beings are capable of making mistakes somehow. How could Yahweh be considered perfect if he has repeatedly failed at what he's trying to do? If he hates the idea of people not being exactly like him, and it is impossible for two free thinking people to be exactly like each other, then why have free will at all? People say he doesn't want robots, but somehow he wants people that do exactly what he wants, and are completely devoted to him. That kind of sounds like he wants a robot to me. If he values free will so much, why does he call us wicked for exercising it?
I have said this before, that claiming your god is all powerful and perfect doesn't actually help it. If he's perfect, then there's no way even a minor mistake should be excused. If he's all powerful, then anything that happens is only because he allows it to happen, so he carries part or all of the blame. There is a passage where Jesus says what sort of father would hear his son ask for bread, and give him a rock? There are passages that say if you ask in the name of Jesus, it will be given to you. Yet devout believers will watch themselves and their family die of curable diseases and such, despite their fervent prayers. If no one claimed Yahweh was perfect or all powerful, some things could be excused. He couldn't get around to it. He couldn't pull it off. That's ok, because he has such a burden. Some people complain about believers praying to find their car keys, and not finding cures for cancer, yet an all powerful god should be able to handle every problem, from pointing towards a misplaced key to keeping a meteor from hitting a populated area. When you claim someone has power over all things, and yet some things happen that shouldn't, it just looks all the more glaring. That's why people keep bringing up the problem of evil, and why praying for something doesn't work consistently. Indeed what sort of person would look at a suffering child, begging for bread, and hand him a rock? The idea of free will only gets you so far.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason... http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/ Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50 A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh. http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html |
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