My issues with Atheism, Lets talk :)

[Eilonnwy]

Right now I am just kind of babbling,

I'd say that's the only true thing you've stated.

Atheism is interesting but I don't find comfort in cold hard logic and data driven beliefs.

Atheism is not cold hard logic, how many times do we have to tell this to you until it gets through your thick skull? Atheism is a disbelief in god, nothing more. What you are arguing against is science and skepticism, and while it may be logic, I reject the notion that it is "cold hard." Science and skepticism is wonderful. I understand so much about the world by striving to understand it for what it really is instead of imposing my preconceived notions on what I think it should be.

My instincts strongly oppose and science seems to new, it has been rewritten too many times. Good luck with your pursuit for the truth!!! LOVE and LIGHT!

Science gives you your light, your microwave, your computer, your TV, you health and so much more. The scientific method is the most reliable method by which we discern what is most likely to be true from what is most likely to be false.

Science has not been rewritten, it's a self correcting process. Do you honestly think you know everything? Seriously, if you are trying to honestly learn about the world, you're going to find out something you once thought was true is wrong, and science embraces that. The ability to dislodge false notions for more accurate ones is science greatest strength. That's what makes it the greatest method for discovering what's true about our observable word.

[LEDO]

Hey everyone. This is my first post. I'm confused so I'll apologize for the ramble that follows.

- I worship nature, I can FEEL nature, and human connection and that there is a larger power and force at work in the world. I can't prove it... but you can't disprove it. My problem with Atheism in its sole dependence on the scientific method. It is simply a tool to break things down into categories, but creating categories is really just created by humans, its a human process.

I need a beer my brain hurts.

Feeling nature are we? Whenever that happens at my age, I know it is time to change my Depends. Now if you really want to feel nature, drop some acid. Boy let me tell you, that really fucks up an atheist...until it wears off. My real issue is that I don't get to go to eternal Disneyworld when I die, no matter how good I am.

Or how about this one, "God just created everything, made it look old and implanted our memories." Disprove that one you godless heathens!

Too many aches and not enough window pane.

[LoveandLight]

First of all, just to clear this up... I'm not a believer in organized religion. I never was. This is the first time I've contemplated this shit at ALL. I'm a music producer, I spend most of my time writing music, and going out with friends and traveling. But I've been obsessed with this shit for a month now and I just came here to babble a little bit, tell you my beliefs, possibly give you some insight into mine, and get some insight into yours. You can attack my ass and tell me I don't know shit (like most of you have), that my statements are worthless, etc. its pretty common among what I've read from Atheists... So yeah. Just a word of warning to ya. Your scaring a bunch of people away from the idea of Atheism by being a bunch of condescending pricks. Just letting ya know

Secondly, I embrace the progress of science and I'm as eager as any atheist that humanity increases its knowledge of the universe. I was just questioning it when its used to throw concepts of god down the toilet. I appreciate it when you inform the theistic masses that their own ideas are outdated, but not in this way-

"then you're probably not an atheist because you have a concept of God that you believe in, regardless of how utterly useless it is."

You can say religion divides the human race, causes wars, etc. But what the hell would the world be without it? Its benefits are immeasurable, an inconceivable amount of art, music, culture, hope, faith, 95% of the shit you ENJOY when your not masturbating to data, has arisen out of ORGANIZED RELIGION and spirituality. And yeah there is an unwanted by-product of this - hillbillies and suicide bombers. What has science created? A better understanding of how the world and universe works, (nice, LOVE it), cures for diseases (its why my mom is still alive, THANKS!) an easier more convenient life (Love what my computer can do) and --- the by products? umm... the ability to produce copious amounts of waste products, pollution, chemicals, poisoning, a society that lives off pills/drugs fast food and oh yeah... the ability to kill 7 million people in 5 seconds... Science has given humans the ability to end all of civilization, so don't go knocking religion as if its useless, that faith is useless because your focusing only on all the bad things that have come out of it.

"However, it's important to realize that just because someone can't disprove, **IT DOESN'T MAKE IT OKAY TO BELIEVE** (who are you to tell me what is okay?) Yeah we can't disprove it, but you can't prove it"

Yeah I can't prove it, but you can't disprove it. We could go on all day. Atheists believe it is the responsible of the other to prove there IS a god. I say... where the hell did all this matter, energy and its properties come from? From our own experience we know everything created has a creator. Why then should creation itself be different? How can a universe of mindless matter produce self replicating life? Have matter and energy have been around for infinity, I say that's speculation.

We both know there is something bigger than us - you would call it the universe and I would call it God. The warm feeling that I have, I wouldn't describe it as that. I feel humble in awe and I'm trying to explain something in a language beyond space in time. I'm talking about the limitation of the 5 senses... A worm cannot see, does that mean that picture of the galaxy you showed me doesn't exist.

"You seem to complain that atheists are somehow arrogant because we believe we can understand the world. I don't think you give humans and human intellect enough credit."

Exactlyyyy my point. I don't.

And this is where we differ -
In order to "believe" in God you seem to require a physical explanation. This is impossible because, as I've pointed out above, we're talking about something beyond the laws of physics. Super --- Natural. I think this is what Einstien and Dawkins speak about when they speak of god, and its what I feel with my entire being, so yeah I'm talking about my feelings and my intution because I believe theres more there. I don't even want to post this reply cuz you guys are gonna act like fuckin assholes... just bringing up the idea of opening your mind a little bit. Theistics should too.

---

And saying that Atheism is ONLY the disbeleif in god, that its not about cold hard logic. You ask me why should I believe in god? Wheres the evidence? Prove it. If you were then to believe it, I'm pretty sure I would have to use some cold hard logic on yo assssss..

[Tiberius]

First of all, just to clear this up... I'm not a believer in organized religion. I never was. This is the first time I've contemplated this shit at ALL. I'm a music producer, I spend most of my time writing music, and going out with friends and traveling. But I've been obsessed with this shit for a month now and I just came here to babble a little bit, tell you my beliefs, possibly give you some insight into mine, and get some insight into yours. You can attack my ass and tell me I don't know shit (like most of you have), that my statements are worthless, etc. its pretty common among what I've read from Atheists... So yeah. Just a word of warning to ya. Your scaring a bunch of people away from the idea of Atheism by being a bunch of condescending pricks. Just letting ya know

Look, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you came here to get some insight into our beliefs. Why then, are you so insistent on saying we use "cold hard logic" and some absolute belief in science to prove God doesn't exist. None of us here have that position; it's one that you have dreamed up. We're "attacking" your ass because that is what you would do to us if we came to your forum and started telling you what you believed, even though none of it is true.

So here's an idea, instead of going on what you've "read" about atheists, how about actually listening to what we say? We might seem like a bunch of condescending pricks, but that's only because you seem to keep ignoring every single one of us. Also, I couldn't give a rat's ass if I'm scaring people away from atheism. I'm not here to deconvert people; I'm here to discuss it with people, and correct flawed views. People come to atheism on their own, and that's how it should remain.

Secondly, I embrace the progress of science and I'm as eager as any atheist that humanity increases its knowledge of the universe. I was just questioning it when its used to throw concepts of god down the toilet. I appreciate it when you inform the theistic masses that their own ideas are outdated, but not in this way-

As we've pointed out, none of us here (bar maybe a few kooks) are using science to throw the concept of God down. If anything, we do that using logic and philosophy. Science has absolutely nothing to do with it. Science deals with the observable; gods are not observable. Science deals with the testable; gods are not testable. If you think we can disprove God using science, pretend you are trying to do the same, and come up with 1 verifiable experiment that would do so!

You can say religion divides the human race, causes wars, etc. But what the hell would the world be without it? Its benefits are immeasurable, an inconceivable amount of art, music, culture, hope, faith, 95% of the shit you ENJOY when your not masturbating to data, has arisen out of ORGANIZED RELIGION and spirituality. And yeah there is an unwanted by-product of this - hillbillies and suicide bombers. What has science created? A better understanding of how the world and universe works, (nice, LOVE it), cures for diseases (its why my mom is still alive, THANKS!) an easier more convenient life (Love what my computer can do) and --- the by products? umm... the ability to produce copious amounts of waste products, pollution, chemicals, poisoning, a society that lives off pills/drugs fast food and oh yeah... the ability to kill 7 million people in 5 seconds... Science has given humans the ability to end all of civilization, so don't go knocking religion as if its useless, that faith is useless because your focusing only on all the bad things that have come out of it.

In my opinion, the benefits of religion are far out-weighed by the amount of killing, corrupting, and general spreading of mis-information that lies in its wake. People produce art, music, culture, hope, without religion. You can find inspiration from all sorts of things; religion isn't needed to do that. Science on the other hand, has produced all those things you've said, but it adapts to the by-products. We're finding cleaner ways of creating energy, healthier ways of living, and the technology to detect and avert people with weapons that can kill 7 million people in 5 seconds. You may have noticed, but the current threats to the world are deeply religious nations, namely Iran and North Korea. They abuse science, using it to kill and threaten, because they believe that they are soldiers of God (on in Kim Jong-ill's case, he thinks he practically is a God).

Science itself has no morality; it simply tells us how the world works. It is up to the minds of men how to use that information. Science doesn't kill people; people kill people.

Yeah I can't prove it, but you can't disprove it. We could go on all day. Atheists believe it is the responsible of the other to prove there IS a god. I say... where the hell did all this matter, energy and its properties come from? From our own experience we know everything created has a creator. Why then should creation itself be different? How can a universe of mindless matter produce self replicating life? Have matter and energy have been around for infinity, I say that's speculation.

It's a standard burden of proof in philosophy. Those who are making the positive claim have the burden of proof, until such a time as the burden is fulfilled. The positive claim is that God exists (since atheists...at least most of them...don't make the positive claim "God doesn't exist"), and thus it is the burden of the theist to prove that claim. Most sensible theists come to the conclusion that such a proof is impossible, and we all reach some form of agreement in agnosticism.

Your argument for a "creation has a creator" falls down for a couple of reasons:

1) In your experience, something created has a creator. However, your experience doesn't make that a law. You have no idea (nor do any of us) if some "things" can come into existence on their own, without being created.
2) You ask the question "why should creation be different?", and if we assume that you are correct, and everything needs a creator, then who or what created the creator? If nothing created the creator, then why does creation need a creator? You can save one massive step by unsupposing the existence of an eternal omnipotent being.

As for how a universe of mindless matter produce self-replicating life, I can only suggest you read up on abiogenesis. The science isn't complete, but there are some theories with evidence behind them. One day, maybe we'll know. Until then, I hold that your assertion that God did it is nothing but speculation either.

We both know there is something bigger than us - you would call it the universe and I would call it God. The warm feeling that I have, I wouldn't describe it as that. I feel humble in awe and I'm trying to explain something in a language beyond space in time. I'm talking about the limitation of the 5 senses... A worm cannot see, does that mean that picture of the galaxy you showed me doesn't exist.

We don't have 5 senses...we have more, but despite this, I would ask how you can know something is outside space and time when you have admitted to the "limitations of your senses". If your senses are limited, such that you cannot tell what is outside of space and time, how can you make any assertions about what is outside of space and time (or even if there is anything outside of space and time).

And this is where we differ -
In order to "believe" in God you seem to require a physical explanation. This is impossible because, as I've pointed out above, we're talking about something beyond the laws of physics. Super --- Natural. I think this is what Einstien and Dawkins speak about when they speak of god, and its what I feel with my entire being, so yeah I'm talking about my feelings and my intution because I believe theres more there. I don't even want to post this reply cuz you guys are gonna act like fuckin assholes... just bringing up the idea of opening your mind a little bit. Theistics should too.

Again, no this is untrue. I don't require a physical explanation. A genuine miracle would be good enough for me. If God exists, and is all-powerful, violating the laws of the universe shouldn't be beyond it.

I have a perfectly open mind; I just don't see the point in opening it so far my brain (and by that I mean by reasoning and rational thinking) has to fall out. Speculate, sure, but unless you have a decent explanation, there isn't any point in believing in it. One day, perhaps I'll believe in God, but for now, I don't like believing in things that I don't have some kind of certainty with. The idea of God seems to me to be one that relies constantly on speculation and arguing God out of reach of reason. For this reason, I do not believe.

[LEDO]

Your scaring a bunch of people away from the idea of Atheism by being a bunch of condescending pricks. Just letting ya know

When some Creationist tells me that the earth is 6,000 years old and the Flintstones is a documentary, condescending prick is the first thing that comes into my mind. Just letting you know.

[LoveandLight]

Your scaring a bunch of people away from the idea of Atheism by being a bunch of condescending pricks. Just letting ya know

When some Creationist tells me that the earth is 6,000 years old and the Flintstones is a documentary, condescending prick is the first thing that comes into my mind. Just letting you know.

Fighting fire with fire. Atheism, TO ME, and to many I have talked to, maybe not the DEFINITION of Atheism, is coming across as an organized non-religion with many of the same attributes. Just saying...

[Watson]

I would strongly suggest that you look into Buddhism, LoveandLight, because from what you are saying, the belief system that comes with it is very close to our own. Almost spot on, in fact.

Since I'm already kind of involved in a discussion(just haven't been capable of responding yet), I wont dive head-first into this one. However, it seems to me that what L&L is pointing out here is that there are other ways to apply logic, and other methods of using it than the one which is prescribed by Atheists in general to the subject ofjust about everything. That's what I glean from this topic and L&L's* posts.

*Hope you don't mind the nickname

[Autumnlicious]

Fighting fire with fire. Atheism, TO ME, and to many I have talked to, maybe not the DEFINITION of Atheism, is coming across as an organized non-religion with many of the same attributes. Just saying...

First off, definitions matter. Second, redefining things to mean whatever you want is a sure fire way of being not understood.

You are playing the victim card as well, as evidenced by your earlier posts. Since you cannot accept correction and will not admit that your ignorance of certain topics has lead you to make stupid posts, I must conclude you are some form of troll or just a very woo-filled person. Either way, dumbass.

[LoveandLight]

redefining things or did you just prove what i said FOR me. Your a fucking egoistical maniac if you believe you know it all and call anyone who finds faith in the unexplained a troll and a dumbass. This is worse than christianity FUCK you.

[Autumnlicious]

redefining things or did you just prove what i said FOR me. Your a fucking egoistical maniac if you believe you know it all and call anyone who finds faith in the unexplained a troll and a dumbass. This is worse than christianity FUCK you.

What does egoistical mean? Was the first line really a sentence? May I not call someone ignorant when they display a lack of knowledge?

Hummers and Kisses,
Syna