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RE: Belief and Knowledge
October 31, 2014 at 10:21 pm
(October 31, 2014 at 3:24 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: The non-local cause thing would actually have been an interesting check mark for your side...if any of you had posited it BEFORE we discovered quantum weirdness.
Theists didn't have to posit it. Atheists posited it for us. Long before the discovery of quantum wierdness, atheists were proclaiming that if God exists we should see evidence for His existence in the world....like some event which can't be caused by anything in our reality. Low and Behold its discovered that some events do not have local causes. Apparently causes which are not part of our reality no longer get the check mark. You guys keep moving the goal posts back.
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RE: Belief and Knowledge
October 31, 2014 at 10:24 pm
(This post was last modified: October 31, 2014 at 10:25 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
That's a bit vague for a prediction. I don't think it would pass peer review. Bit like the weatherman "Tonights weather will be dark, ending with light at dawn."
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Belief and Knowledge
October 31, 2014 at 10:37 pm
(October 31, 2014 at 10:24 pm)Rhythm Wrote: That's a bit vague for a prediction. I don't think it would pass peer review. Bit like the weatherman "Tonights weather will be dark, ending with light at dawn."
Actually I don't like that last statement and would like to take it back. I don't know what atheists thought before the discovery of quantum wierdness. I only assume they thought such things. I just think MA criticism that it would have gotten a check mark if predicted ahead of time is a little ludicrous. He's taking a position that if someone made the prediction ahead of time....that prediction somehow changes the evidence. It does not.
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RE: Belief and Knowledge
October 31, 2014 at 10:46 pm
(This post was last modified: October 31, 2014 at 10:52 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Well, it would have. That's how things have been getting check marks for some time now. I don't see him taking any such position (maybe he is, IDK, he'll have to handle that).
Successful predictions -become- evidence. I suppose one could argue that this -does- "change the evidence" but I don;t think we'd really be arguing. I know what you mean (I think, lol) - so for me, no, making predictions does not "change the evidence" (things would be what they are regardless of whether or not any prediction was made, the evidence for whatever it was would be no different). The tough part is deciding between two explanations which -both- fit the evidence. There, successful predictions can be a trump card. There was definitely a point where the evidence available to us left the door open if faith is on one side and science on another (slightly absurd situation, but meh). If the predictions of faith had been as reliable as the predictions of science - the method we use to do science would have to give those checkmarks to faith. People would be pouring over them as well - earning their paychecks, making their names....9-5.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Belief and Knowledge
November 1, 2014 at 3:04 am
(This post was last modified: November 1, 2014 at 3:05 am by Mudhammam.)
(October 31, 2014 at 10:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote: There was definitely a point where the evidence available to us left the door open if faith is on one side and science on another When Jesus taught the love of truth because it would set the soul free, little did he know that it would set us free from his Father.
God - R.I.P. - 9,789 B.C.-1859. A.D.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Belief and Knowledge
November 1, 2014 at 8:07 am
(This post was last modified: November 1, 2014 at 8:09 am by Whateverist.)
(November 1, 2014 at 3:04 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: (October 31, 2014 at 10:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote: There was definitely a point where the evidence available to us left the door open if faith is on one side and science on another When Jesus taught the love of truth because it would set the soul free, little did he know that it would set us free from his Father.
God - R.I.P. - 9,789 B.C.-1859. A.D.
Didn't JC also say "I am the way"? So maybe he meant personal transcendence is the way. Follow him by doing it yourself .. "we're all individuals" .. or something like that.
But didn't he also say "I and the father are one"? Clever, so not only must God be transcended, but he, the example giver, must also be transcended. Destroy false idols. If you meet a god/buddha on the street, kill him. Little did JC understand that all those followers would write it down and make a golden calf out of it. Poor bastard. Just goes to show, if he really knew he would have known how impossible it was to communicate and just shut the hell up already. Maybe he should have tried writing koans.
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RE: Belief and Knowledge
November 1, 2014 at 8:24 am
(This post was last modified: November 1, 2014 at 8:31 am by Heywood.)
(October 31, 2014 at 10:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Successful predictions -become- evidence. I suppose one could argue that this -does- "change the evidence" but I don;t think we'd really be arguing. I know what you mean (I think, lol) - so for me, no, making predictions does not "change the evidence" (things would be what they are regardless of whether or not any prediction was made, the evidence for whatever it was would be no different). The tough part is deciding between two explanations which -both- fit the evidence. There, successful predictions can be a trump card. There was definitely a point where the evidence available to us left the door open if faith is on one side and science on another (slightly absurd situation, but meh). If the predictions of faith had been as reliable as the predictions of science - the method we use to do science would have to give those checkmarks to faith. People would be pouring over them as well - earning their paychecks, making their names....9-5.
What the evidence suggests to us is that our reality isn't all there is.....that perhaps effects in our reality can be caused outside of it. This something you would expect if God exists and maintains this world. MA basically said..."sorry bro....too fucking bad you weren't born before the discovery of quantum wierdness so you can make a prediction.....no prediction....no check mark". His position here doesn't follow. The evidence tells us the something. What it tells us is not dependent on a prior prediction.
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RE: Belief and Knowledge
November 1, 2014 at 10:27 am
(November 1, 2014 at 8:24 am)Heywood Wrote: What the evidence suggests to us is that our reality isn't all there is.....that perhaps effects in our reality can be caused outside of it.
Welcome to the multiverse theory, no god required.
Quote: This something you would expect if God exists and maintains this world.
No it isn't.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Belief and Knowledge
November 1, 2014 at 10:39 am
(This post was last modified: November 1, 2014 at 10:42 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 1, 2014 at 8:24 am)Heywood Wrote: What the evidence suggests to us is that our reality isn't all there is.....that perhaps effects in our reality can be caused outside of it. I'm not really sure that this suggestion is all that strong. That we do not know or cannot ascertain such a cause doesn;t to me, suggest that said cause must be "elsewhere". Was rain being caused "elsewhere" until the moment we hammered out the evapo-transpirative cycle? I think not. The evidence suggests that there is something that we do not know, not that something outside of reality is having an effect on something inside of reality - or even that these terms can be sensibly used when they are arranged thusly. That is a strangely specific sort of claim to flow from what is, boiled down to it's simplest - an invocation of the unknown unknown.
Quote:This something you would expect if God exists and maintains this world. MA basically said..."sorry bro....too fucking bad you weren't born before the discovery of quantum wierdness so you can make a prediction.....no prediction....no check mark". His position here doesn't follow. The evidence tells us the something. What it tells us is not dependent on a prior prediction.
Sure, but it doesn't tell us anything about god. Had you (or anyone) made that prediction by means of christing before the discovery it definitely would have been something that science delved deeply into - the checkmark would have been given as it has been for a great many other notions. Ultimately, as you say, the evidence would still be what it is regardless of any prediction (or lack thereof) made, and what it is is still not "god" - so that wouldn't change. That happens sometimes as well. Something fits the evidence, predictions pan out...and then, mystifyingly, it tuns out that we were wrong anyway. In this case that;s not precisely the situation, as the predictions of faith are non-existent and/or unsuccessful - but had they been, we would have found ourselves precisely where we are now, all other things being equal. That's the unknown unknown for ya. Again, you'll have to discuss MA's position with MA.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Belief and Knowledge
November 1, 2014 at 10:54 am
(This post was last modified: November 1, 2014 at 10:56 am by Heywood.)
(November 1, 2014 at 10:39 am)Rhythm Wrote: (November 1, 2014 at 8:24 am)Heywood Wrote: What the evidence suggests to us is that our reality isn't all there is.....that perhaps effects in our reality can be caused outside of it. I'm not really sure that this suggestion is all that strong. That we do not know or cannot ascertain such a cause doesn;t to me, suggest that said cause must be "elsewhere". Was rain being caused "elsewhere" until the moment we hammered out the evapo-transpirative cycle? I think not. The evidence suggests that there is something that we do not know, not that something outside of reality is having an effect on something inside of reality - or even that these terms can be sensibly used when they are arranged thusly. That is a strangely specific sort of claim to flow from what is, boiled down to it's simplest - an invocation of the unknown unknown.
Poppycock.....this isn't a question of not knowing. This isn't some gap in our understanding.
If you wanted to make different statement about what the evidence suggest it is this. Not all effects have causes. I'm not going to swallow that pill....I'm not going to throw out causality from my world view when there is a viable coherent alternative.
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