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Atheism = Desperation
#51
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 1, 2014 at 1:37 pm)Esquilax Wrote: Also, I'm pretty fucking tired of this "you all believe the universe happened at random?! Herp a derp derp herp!" strawman. Dodgy

Then how was it created ? believe me I heard many people tell about this random thing, if your answer is "we don't know yet", then it's the same religious answer i have for many other things.

(November 2, 2014 at 5:26 am)robvalue Wrote: You say this universe is self-evidently one that was created. What would a universe look like that was not created?

We recognize things as created and so having a creator by contrasting with things we know occur naturally. We have no other universe "occuring naturally" to compare to.

Saying there is a creator is an assertion, not an argument.

Saying the creator is whatever god you happen to favour is an assertion on an assertion.

It's not me who turned it into an argument, to me it's already a fact.
http://mic.com/articles/75869/this-will-...-out-there

It's just this..if you try to convince me that something with the size of the universe, along with micro organisms -like us compared to its size- with such complication like the human biology, along with discoveries stating that the full size of the universe is HUGE but there are billions of huge universes too,

All of that, holds no evidence of a creator, then..sorry, we go our separate paths. I just simply know that something so big can never ever be without a creator. Just like your current computer OS . It's impossible to say "well, there is no enough evidence that humans made it".

My assertion of assertion is the faith I chose.

What many don't get, is that it's already asserted. The complexity & size of the universe is the assertion of god.
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#52
RE: Atheism = Desperation
No, I was saying there is good evidence computer software was made by humans because we have experience of it being made by humans, and no examples of it occuring without humans.

Whether or not there are "other universes" has no bearing on what created them, if anything. The size and complexity of something is not an indication of design. Design can only be contrasted with non-design.

Who designed god? And who designed god's designer? It's just moving the question.

So all you are now saying is that you assume god exists. Atheists just ask for evidence. Sure, if that is the case, then there is no more discussion to be had. As far as I'm concerned, untestable unfalsifiable claims are worthless.

If you want to be scientific, you assume as little as possible. You assume that what you experience is in some way real, that you can learn something about the reality, and that there are certain rules of logic. After that, you only base conclusions on evidence, observation and reasoning.

Not everyone wants to be scientific though, and that's up to them.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

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#53
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 2, 2014 at 5:26 am)AtlasS Wrote: Then how was it created ? believe me I heard many people tell about this random thing, if your answer is "we don't know yet", then it's the same religious answer i have for many other things.

We are not a 100% sure. This does not make it 'the same religious answer' as we do not make claims of being sure how it began. Religions claim 'God did it', 'Allah did it', etc. We only say 'We think it's most probable that this happened based on the evidence we have'. In contrast to religious claims, the Big Bang theory actually has scientific evidence to back it up.

I'll try to explain it a bit, but I'm not a physicist. I recommend looking up a talk or book of Lawrence Krauss if you want to know more. Basically, we know that if matter and antimatter collide the result is nothing. However, nothing is not really nothing. If you weigh nothing, take out all the particles, it still weighs something. There are still chemicals in nothing, and if they collide it is possible for them to create matter and antimatter.

"However, I don't think I am really qualified to talk about nothing because theologians are the only true experts of nothing." - Lawrence Krauss

That's a very crude explanation, sorry for that. Keep in mind that even if this is not the case that does not prove your god, or a god for that matter, exists. It only shows we don't know yet. The claim of atheism is not 'there is no god', although some might claim that, it is merely the rejection of the claims made by religions.

As far as humans and other lifeforms go, evolution explains that very well.
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#54
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 2, 2014 at 5:26 am)AtlasS Wrote: Then how was it created ? believe me I heard many people tell about this random thing, if your answer is "we don't know yet", then it's the same religious answer i have for many other things.

How so?

Saying we don't know because there is insufficient data is the opposite to the religious stance which is "there is no evidence that god did it, but god did it"

Without evidence "we don't know" is the only sane answer.



You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.

Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.




 








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#55
RE: Atheism = Desperation
Atlass, I'm curious, how do we recognize design?
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain

'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House

“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom

"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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#56
RE: Atheism = Desperation
Also, "then how was it created?" is classic argument for ignorance. Just because we, or anyone, don't have an answer, it doesn't mean you can make one up or that all explanations are equally likely.

Made up, unsupported answers do more harm than good. They lead to bad decisions in the future, and they discourage actual scientific enquiry.

You don't know how the universe was created, I hope you would admit that. It's fine to just stop there instead of speculating.

I'm not trying to attack you, only to demonstrate faults in your reasoning.

Even if there is a god, there is no way we can know anything about it. Certainly we cannot know it is all powerful, all good, or even slightly good. So it's kind of a pointless answer, even as an assertion.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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#57
RE: Atheism = Desperation
I'll just note in passing that "I don't know how [X] happened, so let's find out" is a whole universe away from "You don't know how [X] happened but my fuzzy feelings have convinced me that the man in this magic book did it - why bother looking further?"
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
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#58
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 2, 2014 at 5:26 am)robvalue Wrote: You say this universe is self-evidently one that was created. What would a universe look like that was not created
I'd still love for this Atlas guy to answer this.

Since he "knows' this is what a created universe looks like, he should also "know" what a random universe looks like.
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#59
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 2, 2014 at 6:52 am)miniboes Wrote: We are not a 100% sure. This does not make it 'the same religious answer' as we do not make claims of being sure how it began. Religions claim 'God did it', 'Allah did it', etc. We only say 'We think it's most probable that this happened based on the evidence we have'. In contrast to religious claims, the Big Bang theory actually has scientific evidence to back it up.

I'll try to explain it a bit, but I'm not a physicist. I recommend looking up a talk or book of Lawrence Krauss if you want to know more. Basically, we know that if matter and antimatter collide the result is nothing.

Thats not quite right, the collission of matter and antimatter merely frees up the energy stored in the particles as mass, which is then released as an equivalent amount of radiation of different types. It's not nothing, energy is conserved.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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#60
RE: Atheism = Desperation
(November 2, 2014 at 5:26 am)AtlasS Wrote: The complexity & size of the universe is the assertion of god.

I heavily studied mathematics when I was your age; in my 20's I was fascinated with COMPLEX NUMBERS, here is the very simple demonstration of what WE (humans) see as complexity (and vastness):





This fractal zoom was produced with just one mathematical formula, just imagine what 20 of them could do ?

This world we live in is self-similar on almost every level and it's not that complex as you think it is underneath it all, self-similarity just gives our lil' brains illusion that it is Cool Shades
Why Won't God Heal Amputees ? 

Oči moje na ormaru stoje i gledaju kako sarma kipi  Tongue
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