Full circle

[IATIA]

"Infinity has no end, so it cannot pass" is an artifact of language between passing/ending. The -therefore- doesn't follow anyway, I guess that makes the artifact irrelevant but it's interesting when we see them. Have you considered that a contributing factor in our inability to discuss infinity (and our dissatisfaction with the discussion) is due to our inexperience with the subject? Our notions of time (and our experience of time) were not built with an eye for accomodating infinity.

An eternity has no end. An infinity has no beginning or end. Relating to my original post, I do consider the possibility that we have experience with infinity. The "uncomfortable" relation with infinity comes as a result of going against 'what we know'.

How would, as a fun side note, something with "thoughts" built out of matter process infinity? How might that be accomplished? How are we to treat infinity as a variable?

That requires the assumption that this is all real rather than a product of our awareness. 'Brain in a vat' if you will.

[The Grand Nudger]

An eternity has no end. An infinity has no beginning or end.

That's nice, and?

Relating to my original post, I do consider the possibility that we have experience with infinity. The "uncomfortable" relation with infinity comes as a result of going against 'what we know'.

Except that I don't think you're going to be able to demonstrate that any human being has ever had such an experience.

That requires the assumption that this is all real rather than a product of our awareness. 'Brain in a vat' if you will.

Lol, no, it doesn't -and I'm actually a "brain in a vat"er, of sorts myself. Whether it were all real or we were brains in vats (to me, the same proposition btw), we would have to have some mechanism, some system, some way of handling infinity as a variable - if we actually were capable of doing so.

[IATIA]

If we go beyond the universe, what is there?

Is there a wall? is there another universe? If infinity does not exist, then what would be the stopping point? Would not there be something beyond that?

[The Grand Nudger]

If we go beyond the universe, what is there?

Is there a wall? is there another universe? If infinity does not exist, then what would be the stopping point? Would not there be something beyond that?

I don't know, I don't know if there's a beyond- I can't even tell you that the word and concept "beyond" applies. The idea of stopping and starting are well rooted in our experience, but infinity doesn't seem to be, so perhaps these terms wouldn't have any reliability here either? Care to share your experience, or the experience of any human being that has ever lived in this regard? You see, I'm not required to have these answers, but you, by virtue of your argument, must have a hell of alot more information (accurate information, of course) regarding infinity. If you don't.....then wtf are we talking about?

[IATIA]

by virtue of extrapolation, science and god run into the same issue. First Cause. What caused the Big Bang?

Theists get around this, ineffectively I might add, by insisting that god was the first cause and always was with no before god. Science on the other hand has not come up with a viable 'First Cause' either. The latest greatest, that I am aware of, is that a uncaused fluctuation in the pre Big Bang universe/world/space (stick whatever word or description you would like here) led to the explosion of a singularity. Either scenario still has a multitude of issues, mainly what was before the First Cause?

Once one dismisses time, before and after cease to exist which eliminates first causes and infinite regression. This would mean that everything, every possibility exists now. Quantum physics equations even suggest this possibility.

[The Grand Nudger]

by virtue of extrapolation, science and god run into the same issue. First Cause. What caused the Big Bang?

As before, I don't know, I don't even know if the term is applicable. I'm not willing to extrapolate based upon the current behaviors of this universe to something "else" which is explicitly not -this universe-.

Theists get around this, ineffectively I might add, by insisting that god was the first cause and always was with no before god.

So they don't get around it at all.

Science on the other hand has not come up with a viable 'First Cause' either. The latest greatest, that I am aware of, is that a uncaused fluctuation in the pre Big Bang universe/world/space (stick whatever word or description you would like here) led to the explosion of a singularity. Either scenario still has a multitude of issues, mainly what was before the First Cause?

We don't know is a pretty good answer when, well, you don't know.

Once one dismisses time, before and after cease to exist which eliminates first causes and infinite regression.

Time and causality are not so tightly bound as concepts. You'll have to be much more specific. If things were not as they were (say we dismissed time) then things could still be a cause for other things. Precedence or any of that doesn't mean jack when you "dismiss time" (like it does in our universe, with time) but causation would still be possible and applicable. Might be trickier to determine what is what though.

This would mean that everything, every possibility exists now. Quantum physics equations even suggest this possibility.

Sigh, qm.............

[Mystical]

Hi and welcome to the forums

How can a thought initiate a chemical reaction? What initiated the thought?

Human behavior is very easily explained by biology and psychology. Why do I want a chocolate Hershey's oreo bar? Because it provides me with the biggest seratonin release of all the candies. I can choose all the candies I want, but I choose that one again and again for a reason. And that reason is biological.
[/quote]

Infinity does exist.

How do you know this? You speak it as a fact.

However, an infinity has no end, so an infinity cannot pass, therefore there can be no infinite trail of events leading to the present.

This seems like circular reasoning to me. Care to explain?

Yes you are correct, a pile of plastic and metals cannot build a computer any more than a computer can do something it is not designed to do.

Do you not know about Natural Selection and its' mechanisms for design? Are you saying you believe in intelligent design? If so how can you account for the obvious flaws and leftover evolution in human biology?

[The Grand Nudger]

Meh, I missed that one, much more day to day example of why a computer can (and does) do what it wasn't designed to do. They malfunction.

[JuliaL]

We are gods. In effect, the "fallen angels".

An amusing speculation.
One with which I have some sympathy, though in a different form.
At the moment of my demise, I hope to see written across the sky:
"GAME OVER, TO CONTINUE, INSERT ANOTHER QUARTER IN 10....9....8"

In my version, the true rules of the simulation are hidden behind the apparent laws of the universe and the game victory condition is to tease these out. My experience with game programmers is that no subterfuge is too sleazy or irrational to be employed. So perhaps your reasoning regarding infinities or consciousness is the golden key that unlocks the magic door to the treasure room filled with unimaginable goodies........or not.


Without evidence, reality with myself as RPG player or yourself as forgetful god, can only remain speculation.
Are you uncomfortable with there being things in the universe forever outside of your understanding? There will always be unknown unknowns of unknown magnitude. I Godel.

[IATIA]

Hi and welcome to the forums

Thanks. Actually, I have been around for a while, just not active for about a year.

How can a thought initiate a chemical reaction? What initiated the thought?

Human behavior is very easily explained by biology and psychology. Why do I want a chocolate Hershey's oreo bar? Because it provides me with the biggest seratonin release of all the candies. I can choose all the candies I want, but I choose that one again and again for a reason. And that reason is biological.

I am not arguing the force of the biochemical functions. The question is whether or not we are totally subservient to the biological process or do we have extraneous control?

Infinity does exist.

How do you know this? You speak it as a fact.

If I shoot an arrow, go pick it up and shoot it again, either I can do this forever or there is a stopping point. what is the stopping point and what is beyond that point. Without infinity, we must be bound by WHAT?

However, an infinity has no end, so an infinity cannot pass, therefore there can be no infinite trail of events leading to the present.

This seems like circular reasoning to me. Care to explain?

Seems pretty straight forward to me even after a reread.

Infinity has no end so, how can you be at the end of an infinity?

Yes you are correct, a pile of plastic and metals cannot build a computer any more than a computer can do something it is not designed to do.

Do you not know about Natural Selection and its' mechanisms for design? Are you saying you believe in intelligent design? If so how can you account for the obvious flaws and leftover evolution in human biology?

For all intents and purposes, we are computers built from chemical reactions with the potential to create better 'computers'. Can that pile of plastic, metals,, silicon assemble itself into a Macintosh computer? No. However, can that plastic break down into amino acids and start a new life that eventually becomes intelligent? Possibly.

As far as intelligent design, as my first post suggests, maybe.

Nothing is real, only our perception of it gives it any meaning or reality. Each of our individual existences may be nothing more than awareness. Nothing that exists is anything more than a figment of our own design. Or perhaps collective design.

---

"GAME OVER, TO CONTINUE, INSERT ANOTHER QUARTER IN 10....9....8"

god: "hey Peter, check this shit out! Whoosh! Flooded all them critters."

Peter: "Cool. How about this ..."