If

[Surgenator]

Coming in a forum in which my point of view is the opposite of the majority of those in the forum it was obvious that i couldn't convince people that i am right and that they are wrong so i never expect to be taken seriously and that of course is not the reason why i came here.
The main reason was and is to sharpen and tune up the way i express myself and secondary to improve my English.
Beside it would become boring to go in a forum in which people agree with my philosophy.
Coming back to your post i would say that your desperation in realize your failing is getting worse by the day.
The reason why i claim that NDEs are real evidence as i already explained few times come from the fact that several of these people who had an NDE could describe things that they have seen during these NDEs.
In their lives they never been in the places that they described so how could they describe these places if they never been there before?
It is obvious that as soon as the body-mind is off the consciousness take over so NDEs are real not hallucinations.
I already suggest you to read the site in which people describe these experience but obviously you either didn't bother to read or you keep on thinking that they are all liars.
That is your problem surgen not mine.


http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/NDERF_NDEs.htm

The main problem is not that your view point is different than most of the people here. The main problem is you don't understand what is considered evidence, who has the burden of proof, and countering your evidence with other phenomena doesn't change who has the burden of proof.

You made several extrodinary claims like spiritual realm, souls, god, strong version of karma, reincarnation, etc... Then you want us to prove you wrong instead of showing these are true. People (in general) are not interested in trying to disprove a negative. So when I present how your evidence makes some unjustified assumptions, you attack the critics character instead of justifing the assumptions. When I present you with a simplier explanantion via artificial NDEs, you want to claim they're not the same without any justification.

Finally, you don't realize that anodotal evidence is not scientific. All your testinomials are worthless because they are based on individual biases, and they can all be explained from known phenomena. Take for example all the testinomials of alien abductions. Do they prove that people are abducted by aliens? No. If they had very similiar stories (which they do), would that prove people are abducted by aliens? Still NO. There was a simple experiment that would of gave scientific evidence for the existence of a soul, which was seeing the number above the operating table. Not one case was successful in telling what the number was.

As a side, when you explain how one realm suppose to interact with a complete other realm (physical with spirit), your arguments would get shread to pieces by the philosophy buffs here. Otherwise, stay around and develop your english writting skills. Hopefully, you'll learn something else as well.

Cheers,

[Little Rik]

The main problem is not that your view point is different than most of the people here. The main problem is you don't understand what is considered evidence, who has the burden of proof, and countering your evidence with other phenomena doesn't change who has the burden of proof.

You made several extrodinary claims like spiritual realm, souls, god, strong version of karma, reincarnation, etc... Then you want us to prove you wrong instead of showing these are true. People (in general) are not interested in trying to disprove a negative. So when I present how your evidence makes some unjustified assumptions, you attack the critics character instead of justifing the assumptions. When I present you with a simplier explanantion via artificial NDEs, you want to claim they're not the same without any justification.

Finally, you don't realize that anodotal evidence is not scientific. All your testinomials are worthless because they are based on individual biases, and they can all be explained from known phenomena. Take for example all the testinomials of alien abductions. Do they prove that people are abducted by aliens? No. If they had very similiar stories (which they do), would that prove people are abducted by aliens? Still NO. There was a simple experiment that would of gave scientific evidence for the existence of a soul, which was seeing the number above the operating table. Not one case was successful in telling what the number was.

As a side, when you explain how one realm suppose to interact with a complete other realm (physical with spirit), your arguments would get shread to pieces by the philosophy buffs here. Otherwise, stay around and develop your english writting skills. Hopefully, you'll learn something else as well.Cheers,

Your comment does not answer my point.
I point how to you that many of these NDEs experiences tell about things that they have seen during their NDEs.
Now, forget for a moment about having seen God and focus about having seen more material-physical things.
Once back to life they describe these things like what was inside a room next to the emergency room where they were or a nurse that did something wrong like dropping a baby which got hurt and need surgery.
This clearly prove that the brain was off and something else that they describe like consciousness was the witness entity.
How can you disprove this.
The next point is about what everybody saw.
All these NDEs talk about having seen or perceived that God is there and that dimension is very very beautiful.
If according to you these NDEs are some sort of hallucination why then these people have seen the same sort of things?
Why only God?
Why not a mix of God, the devil, father Christmas and Nembo Kid?

[LostLocke]

I point how to you that many of these NDEs experiences tell about things that they have seen during their NDEs.
Now, forget for a moment about having seen God and focus about having seen more material-physical things.
Once back to life they describe these things like what was inside a room next to the emergency room where they were or a nurse that did something wrong like dropping a baby which got hurt and need surgery.
This clearly prove that the brain was off and something else that they describe like consciousness was the witness entity.

Sources and references?

[Surgenator]

Your comment does not answer my point.
I point how to you that many of these NDEs experiences tell about things that they have seen during their NDEs.

Unfounded claim 1: NDEs occur when the people are brain dead.
Unfounded claim 2: NDEs didn't occur when the person was going or coming out of brain death.
Unfounded claim 3: True NDEs require the person to be dead.
Unfounded claim 4: What the NDEs experience actually exist and not trickery/illusions.

Now, forget for a moment about having seen God and focus about having seen more material-physical things.
Once back to life they describe these things like what was inside a room next to the emergency room where they were or a nurse that did something wrong like dropping a baby which got hurt and need surgery.
This clearly prove that the brain was off and something else that they describe like consciousness was the witness entity.

FYI. When you are going to have surgery, the doctors don't kill you, perform the surgery, and then revive you.

Great, people can describe a room that they are physically in. But they just can't see the number above the operating table that is out of view from all the doctors and nurses. It's like they are getting the same information as everyone else there and nothing beyond.

How can you disprove this.
The next point is about what everybody saw.
All these NDEs talk about having seen or perceived that God is there and that dimension is very very beautiful.

Some had very terrible experiences. The christians saw jesus, the hindus see shiva, the jews see moses or god. It like what they experience is culturally based.

If according to you these NDEs are some sort of hallucination why then these people have seen the same sort of things?
Why only God?
Why not a mix of God, the devil, father Christmas and Nembo Kid?

Those type of testinomials exist, you just don't want to read them. I wonder why.

Also, all the people that "died" and were revived by doctors but didn't have an NDE, do they prove that there isn't anything beyond? This crowd is a lot bigger.

[pakua]

Did somebody mention mangos?

Hmmm, maybe there is a god!? I think I just had a NDE!

[Little Rik]

Your comment does not answer my point.
I point how to you that many of these NDEs experiences tell about things that they have seen during their NDEs.

Unfounded claim 1: NDEs occur when the people are brain dead.
Unfounded claim 2: NDEs didn't occur when the person was going or coming out of brain death.
Unfounded claim 3: True NDEs require the person to be dead.
Unfounded claim 4: What the NDEs experience actually exist and not trickery/illusions.

Your big problem is that you still believe that the consciousness can not become a witness entity as soon as the brain is off or dead and therefore everything that is perceived during these NDEs are only hallucinations maybe coming from a brain that is not off or dead yet.
Keep on sticking with the Sacks of this material world.
Maybe one day you may get somewhere but i guess not very far in your search for the truth. Good luck to you.

Now, forget for a moment about having seen God and focus about having seen more material-physical things.
Once back to life they describe these things like what was inside a room next to the emergency room where they were or a nurse that did something wrong like dropping a baby which got hurt and need surgery.
This clearly prove that the brain was off and something else that they describe like consciousness was the witness entity.

FYI. When you are going to have surgery, the doctors don't kill you, perform the surgery, and then revive you.

What this has got to do with my point only God knows.

Great, people can describe a room that they are physically in. But they just can't see the number above the operating table that is out of view from all the doctors and nurses. It's like they are getting the same information as everyone else there and nothing beyond.

It is all about what is important and what it is not.
As your father would teach you or show you what really matter at the same time he wouldn't be interested to show you or give you what it is not important or bad for you.
Is to allow you to see and remember a number would be on any help to you or to those idiots who bet on whether you will see it or not?
As i see God is not in this stupid business.
At the same time in certain circumstances he may allow some individual to see things that will help someone in trouble or other individual to understand that the real McCoy is well outside the power of the brain.

Some had very terrible experiences. The christians saw jesus, the hindus see shiva, the jews see moses or god. It like what they experience is culturally based.

How can you say that these experiences are terrible?
As i said in previous post my understanding is that God will let you believe whatever you like.
For a Christian he may dress or better say be perceived like Jesus and for everybody else he will be perceived in whatever figure they like most.
This however has nothing to do with bad or terrible.
You get what you deserve so the figure has absolutely nothing to do with a bad feeling.

If according to you these NDEs are some sort of hallucination why then these people have seen the same sort of things?
Why only God?
Why not a mix of God, the devil, father Christmas and Nembo Kid?

Those type of testinomials exist, you just don't want to read them. I wonder why.

And you have the evidence that what you are talking really relate to a real NDE and not to an hallucination?
I have seen people coming out an LSD trip telling me about having been in the outer space and having ride on top of an angel.

Also, all the people that "died" and were revived by doctors but didn't have an NDE, do they prove that there isn't anything beyond? This crowd is a lot bigger.

I believe that an NDE is given to someone in order to learn something.
Not everybody is ready to learn.
Some people are not.
I know one in particular but i want tell you his name.


By the way, there is an interesting article about your "friend" Mr Shermer written by Pim van Lommel.


http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonl...sponse.htm

---

I point how to you that many of these NDEs experiences tell about things that they have seen during their NDEs.
Now, forget for a moment about having seen God and focus about having seen more material-physical things.
Once back to life they describe these things like what was inside a room next to the emergency room where they were or a nurse that did something wrong like dropping a baby which got hurt and need surgery.
This clearly prove that the brain was off and something else that they describe like consciousness was the witness entity.

Sources and references?

I can't read all the experiences for you.
I just haven't got the time.
You read for yourself if you like.




http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/NDE_Archives/...s_main.htm

[robvalue]

Respect my spiritualitaaaaaah!

[Surgenator]

Unfounded claim 1: NDEs occur when the people are brain dead.
Unfounded claim 2: NDEs didn't occur when the person was going or coming out of brain death.
Unfounded claim 3: True NDEs require the person to be dead.
Unfounded claim 4: What the NDEs experience actually exist and not trickery/illusions.

Your big problem is that you still believe that the consciousness can not become a witness entity as soon as the brain is off or dead and therefore everything that is perceived during these NDEs are only hallucinations maybe coming from a brain that is not off or dead yet.
Keep on sticking with the Sacks of this material world.
Maybe one day you may get somewhere but i guess not very far in your search for the truth. Good luck to you.

What a surprise. I list the unfounded claims, and you shift the burden of proof. How about you find some foundation for your claims before telling me what I think.

Now, forget for a moment about having seen God and focus about having seen more material-physical things.
Once back to life they describe these things like what was inside a room next to the emergency room where they were or a nurse that did something wrong like dropping a baby which got hurt and need surgery.
This clearly prove that the brain was off and something else that they describe like consciousness was the witness entity.

FYI. When you are going to have surgery, the doctors don't kill you, perform the surgery, and then revive you.

What this has got to do with my point only God knows.

Counter to your statement that "this clearly prove that the brain was off." You can't claim the person was brain dead, because dying is a process not an instant on off switch.

Great, people can describe a room that they are physically in. But they just can't see the number above the operating table that is out of view from all the doctors and nurses. It's like they are getting the same information as everyone else there and nothing beyond.

It is all about what is important and what it is not.
As your father would teach you or show you what really matter at the same time he wouldn't be interested to show you or give you what it is not important or bad for you.
Is to allow you to see and remember a number would be on any help to you or to those idiots who bet on whether you will see it or not?
As i see God is not in this stupid business.
At the same time in certain circumstances he may allow some individual to see things that will help someone in trouble or other individual to understand that the real McCoy is well outside the power of the brain.

No, you don't get to claim that only the important stuff gets through. Take your dropping baby story just above. How is that important? Does the guy now know not to drop babies? Did he think dropping babies was ok before? Do you know how stupid this sounds? You should actually do some real thinking instead of letting the emoticon do the thinking for you.

Some had very terrible experiences. The christians saw jesus, the hindus see shiva, the jews see moses or god. It like what they experience is culturally based.

How can you say that these experiences are terrible?
As i said in previous post my understanding is that God will let you believe whatever you like.
For a Christian he may dress or better say be perceived like Jesus and for everybody else he will be perceived in whatever figure they like most.
This however has nothing to do with bad or terrible.
You get what you deserve so the figure has absolutely nothing to do with a bad feeling.

How is "hot, needlelike pierce, excruciatingly painful, for a brief moment on the top of my head" or "black ink had been poured over my eyes" not a terrible experience?

What kind of stupid god is this that he'll let people confirm their delusions? Nevermind the killings done due to religionous differences. But no, god wont even correct someones beliefs. Such a being isn't worthy of the title of God.

If according to you these NDEs are some sort of hallucination why then these people have seen the same sort of things?
Why only God?
Why not a mix of God, the devil, father Christmas and Nembo Kid?

Those type of testinomials exist, you just don't want to read them. I wonder why.

And you have the evidence that what you are talking really relate to a real NDE and not to an hallucination?
I have seen people coming out an LSD trip telling me about having been in the outer space and having ride on top of an angel.

There it goes again, "I can't prove this but you can't prove me wrong, so I'm right." Shifting the burden of proof.

Also, all the people that "died" and were revived by doctors but didn't have an NDE, do they prove that there isn't anything beyond? This crowd is a lot bigger.

I believe that an NDE is given to someone in order to learn something.
Not everybody is ready to learn.
Some people are not.
I know one in particular but i want tell you his name.

The bullshit is strong in this one.

By the way, there is an interesting article about your "friend" Mr Shermer written by Pim van Lommel.
http://www.nderf.org/NDERF/Research/vonl...sponse.htm

I find the article amusing on how it argues a strawman on what Sherman has criticised. Not to mention, they show that the BRAIN IS NOT DEAD. You should read the article yourself.

[Silver]

If according to you these NDEs are some sort of hallucination why then these people have seen the same sort of things?

Have they, or are they merely taking advantage of their near death experiences by claiming to have experienced what others have claimed to experienced? People like attention, especially when gullible twits like you lick it up because you are too dense to realize that the only thing they experienced was an epiphany regarding how to best market their recent experience.

[Cyberman]

> yawn <

This damn thing still going on?