If

[Whateverist]

By the way i still wait to be given an explanation how the physical world can manage itself without a controlling mind.

There is no explanation of this because it's a fundamentally untenable scenario. I'm going to repeat this for the 3rd time on this thread: Minds are a property of brains. Until you can demonstrate the brain of the universe, there's no reason to posit a mind, let alone the possibility that mind can control matter.

What you're doing is assuming that minds can be separate from brains with no evidence to support this assumption. You then claim that minds can control matter, also without any evidence. Extending these assumptions to fit your description of god, the existence of whom you also have no evidence for, takes your claims to ridiculous extremes.

Until you can provide evidence, your position amounts to nothing more than baseless assertion based on unevidenced assumptions.

You never though about it, Rik, did you?

Ben, you may be guilty of argumentum untilurblueintheface, but no one has told Rik more plainly what he needs to hear. If only he could separate out his personal fantasy life from the marketplace of interpersonal ideas. Or better yet, write a comic book. Then he could share his ideas in a setting that didn't just beg for evidence.

[Little Rik]

By the way i still wait to be given an explanation how the physical world can manage itself without a controlling mind.

There is no explanation of this because it's a fundamentally untenable scenario.

Whhhhhoooo, whhhhhooooooo.
Where is the evidence that the universe stay alive and well without a mind and therefore the scenario is untenable?
How do you know that the physical universe can exist without a controlling mind?
Do you have evidence of this?
If you haven't got evidence why then you guess that it is an untenable scenario?

I'm going to repeat this for the 3rd time on this thread: Minds are a property of brains. Until you can demonstrate the brain of the universe, there's no reason to posit a mind, let alone the possibility that mind can control matter.

I can demonstrate that a body can not exist without a controlling mind even if the mind is a demented mind like so many mind in this universe therefore it is obvious that the universal body has got to have a controlling mind.
This is pure mathematics Ben.

What you're doing is assuming that minds can be separate from brains with no evidence to support this assumption. You then claim that minds can control matter, also without any evidence. Extending these assumptions to fit your description of god, the existence of whom you also have no evidence for, takes your claims to ridiculous extremes.
Until you can provide evidence, your position amounts to nothing more than baseless assertion based on unevidenced assumptions.

1) I said that consciousness can be separated from the body and mind as experienced by thousand of NDEs not that the mind can be separated from the brain so please make a correction in your statement.
2) Yes i do claim that the mind control the body which part of it is matter.
This can easily be experienced with your mind-body as YOU decide what to do with your body.
3) How do you know that i have no evidence that God exist?
Can you really enter my consciousness and perceive God within myself?
Again as you most probably are on the bottom of the list in God mind how would you expect to perceive God?
So it is obvious that as you are unable to perceive it you presume that it doesn't exist anywhere else.
Wrong again Ben.

You never though about it, Ben did you?

---

Ben, you may be guilty of argumentum untilurblueintheface, but no one has told Rik more plainly what he needs to hear. If only he could separate out his personal fantasy life from the marketplace of interpersonal ideas. Or better yet, write a comic book. Then he could share his ideas in a setting that didn't just beg for evidence.

Whatever, we all know how intelligent you are.
Maybe very soon you may be elevated to the rank of moderator or administrator like my ex-mate Stim.
In the meantime it is important to come down to planet earth.
Evidence doesn't come easy most of the time.
In the material field those who make a lot of $$$ take their risks and sometime they succeed.
Physically is the same.
You may start some exercises or a diet that will make you feel better.
Mentally is the same as your studies can take you somewhere.
Spiritually speaking there is no risks as the positive is not affected by the negative so you will succeed no matter what.
The problem with you however is that you wait, wait and wait for ever to find out whether there is something or not above the mind and in this way you will never get any evidence.
In this way the mind drag itself in the most dry of the desert.
I guess it is very difficult to find much evidence that normal life exist when you drag yourself in the middle of the desert.

---

Once again you make claims which are not backed up by evidence.
And once again you got big big expectation into believing that if God ever exist he should manifest to you without taking in consideration that atheists may be at the very bottom of the list as far as God may be interested in manifesting in anyone of you.

Back to shifting the burden of proof again. I guess you're going to fail the gullibility test the aliens setup.

Nothing come for free anywhere so how do you expect to perceive God by doing absolutely nothing?

Evidence please.

How do you show the deluded that they're deluded?

And how do you know that they are deluded?
That is why i asked you for evidence.
Capishhh?

Sure it does.
At the same time also a masturbation does.
Get real surgen i am talking about permanent peace of mind achieved through a natural means.

Who cares if it's natural. The fact it works is what counts. If you want a permanent "peace of mind", you can always strap yourself to a IV of morphine for the rest of your life.

Who cares?
Just go around your street corner and see your local dealer.
If he doesn't look like a zombies he must be an exception.
On the other hand someone who achieve peace of mind naturally look healthy and bright.

Evidence in this field is individual and non physical but i suppose it is a bit difficult to explain this topic to someone stuck in the physical world.

Why deny the existence and happiness the pink-invisible-dinosaur-robot-hybrid can give? Evidence in this field is individual and non physical.

Gee, i should try what you are suggesting, you never know surgen.

Your effort to twist the thing around fail badly because it is you that came up with the funny story that the pineal gland is only made of physical stuff without back it up with solid evidence.
By the way i still wait to be given an explanation how the physical world can manage itself without a controlling mind.

I still wait to be given an explanation how the physical world can manage itself without testicles.

We got people who are castrated so why not regarding a castrated physical world.
Gee, surgen you try always your best but you keep on failing time and time again.

[Whateverist]

Ben, you may be guilty of argumentum untilurblueintheface, but no one has told Rik more plainly what he needs to hear. If only he could separate out his personal fantasy life from the marketplace of interpersonal ideas. Or better yet, write a comic book. Then he could share his ideas in a setting that didn't just beg for evidence.

The problem with you however is that you wait, wait and wait for ever to find out whether there is something or not above the mind and in this way you will never get any evidence.
In this way the mind drag itself in the most dry of the desert.
I guess it is very difficult to find much evidence that normal life exist when you drag yourself in the middle of the desert.

Well thank you very much for your concern. But you really have the wrong guy. I don't wait for evidence to believe what can't be justified. Most of my beliefs about who I am, how I work and how to live a life are based primarily on irrationally held beliefs. I just don't take those important beliefs from a book or from a teacher. Rather, I grock them directly through experience and reflection on that experience. I too rely quite a bit on intuition, even though I find the idea of a science based on intuition pretty funny.

So try not to worry too much about me, okay. I'm fine. I see no desert around me, quite the opposite. I like this life very much and it makes sense to me. I wonder if you assume your subjective conclusions are the only correct ones. While I prefer my own I don't claim them as objective truths and would never be so rude as to suggest anyone put aside their own directly felt beliefs for my own. Why do you?

[Ben Davis]

Where is the evidence that the universe stay alive and well without a mind and therefore the scenario is untenable?

Have you not read anything that I've posted in this thread? Minds are a property of brains. I gave you plenty of evidence for this on page 45, post #441 of this thread.

How do you know that the physical universe can exist without a controlling mind? Do you have evidence of this?

Have you not read anything that I've posted in this thread? Minds are a property of brains. I gave you plenty of evidence for this on page 45, post #441 of this thread.

If you haven't got evidence why then you guess that it is an untenable scenario?

Have you not read anything that I've posted in this thread? Minds are a property of brains. I gave you plenty of evidence for this on page 45, post #441 of this thread.

I can demonstrate that a body can not exist without a controlling mind

Nonsense. Of course a body can exist without a mind. There are corpses all over the planet which testify to this fact.

therefore it is obvious that the universal body has got to have a controlling mind.

Once again, please show me the brain of the universe.

This is pure mathematics Ben.

'Pure mathematics' (noun): the branches of mathematics that study and develop the principles of mathematics for their own sake rather than for their immediate usefulness

Nothing that you've said comes close.

1) I said that consciousness can be separated from the body and mind as experienced by thousand of NDEs not that the mind can be separated from the brain so please make a correction in your statement.

Claims to the supernatural assumptions regarding NDEs have been utterly disproven.

2) Yes i do claim that the mind control the body which part of it is matter.

That's not what you mean and you know it. You claim that there is a disembodied mind which is capable of creating universes. This is a supernatural claim that mind can control matter in some kind of telekinetic way. All claims to telekenisis, when reliably tested, have been disproven.

3) How do you know that i have no evidence that God exist?

Because no one has any. If you did, you'd provide it and not resort to the types of arguments that you're using.

Can you really enter my consciousness and perceive God within myself?

No. Psychic abilities are also hocum.

Again as you most probably are on the bottom of the list in God mind how would you expect to perceive God?

How do you know I'm bottom of the list? Did god tell you so? How do you know what's on god's mind?

So it is obvious that as you are unable to perceive it you presume that it doesn't exist anywhere else.

Or it's obvious that it doesn't exist. Occam's razor applies here.

[Surgenator]

Back to shifting the burden of proof again. I guess you're going to fail the gullibility test the aliens setup.

Nothing come for free anywhere so how do you expect to perceive God by doing absolutely nothing?

Except you want us to accept your beliefs for free.

How do you show the deluded that they're deluded?

And how do you know that they are deluded?
That is why i asked you for evidence.
Capishhh?

The deluded cannot accept that doesn't agree with their already agreed conclusion. So try again.

Who cares if it's natural. The fact it works is what counts. If you want a permanent "peace of mind", you can always strap yourself to a IV of morphine for the rest of your life.

Who cares?
Just go around your street corner and see your local dealer.
If he doesn't look like a zombies he must be an exception.
On the other hand someone who achieve peace of mind naturally look healthy and bright.

Thats just stupid.

Why deny the existence and happiness the pink-invisible-dinosaur-robot-hybrid can give? Evidence in this field is individual and non physical.

Gee, i should try what you are suggesting, you never know surgen.

Then you have accepted the pink-invisible-dinosaur-robot-hybrid into your testicles?

I still wait to be given an explanation how the physical world can manage itself without testicles.

We got people who are castrated so why not regarding a castrated physical world.
Gee, surgen you try always your best but you keep on failing time and time again.

You fail again. There are other people who have working testicles. Their testicles keep the physical world from disappearing into non-existence.

[Little Rik]

Where is the evidence that the universe stay alive and well without a mind and therefore the scenario is untenable?

Have you not read anything that I've posted in this thread? Minds are a property of brains. I gave you plenty of evidence for this on page 45, post #441 of this thread.

How do you know that the physical universe can exist without a controlling mind? Do you have evidence of this?

Have you not read anything that I've posted in this thread? Minds are a property of brains. I gave you plenty of evidence for this on page 45, post #441 of this thread.

If you haven't got evidence why then you guess that it is an untenable scenario?

Have you not read anything that I've posted in this thread? Minds are a property of brains. I gave you plenty of evidence for this on page 45, post #441 of this thread.

I can demonstrate that a body can not exist without a controlling mind

Nonsense. Of course a body can exist without a mind. There are corpses all over the planet which testify to this fact.

therefore it is obvious that the universal body has got to have a controlling mind.

Once again, please show me the brain of the universe.

This is pure mathematics Ben.

'Pure mathematics' (noun): the branches of mathematics that study and develop the principles of mathematics for their own sake rather than for their immediate usefulness

Nothing that you've said comes close.

1) I said that consciousness can be separated from the body and mind as experienced by thousand of NDEs not that the mind can be separated from the brain so please make a correction in your statement.

Claims to the supernatural assumptions regarding NDEs have been utterly disproven.

2) Yes i do claim that the mind control the body which part of it is matter.

That's not what you mean and you know it. You claim that there is a disembodied mind which is capable of creating universes. This is a supernatural claim that mind can control matter in some kind of telekinetic way. All claims to telekenisis, when reliably tested, have been disproven.

3) How do you know that i have no evidence that God exist?

Because no one has any. If you did, you'd provide it and not resort to the types of arguments that you're using.

Can you really enter my consciousness and perceive God within myself?

No. Psychic abilities are also hocum.

Again as you most probably are on the bottom of the list in God mind how would you expect to perceive God?

How do you know I'm bottom of the list? Did god tell you so? How do you know what's on god's mind?

So it is obvious that as you are unable to perceive it you presume that it doesn't exist anywhere else.

Or it's obvious that it doesn't exist. Occam's razor applies here.

Ben , you are in a total mental mess.
You try your best to follow physical scientific evidence which evidence is not.
Even in the site that you suggest it say.................Cardiac arrest (CA) survivors experience cognitive deficits including post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). It is unclear whether these are related to cognitive/mental experiences and awareness during CPR. Despite anecdotal reports the broad range of cognitive/mental experiences and awareness associated with CPR has not been systematically studied.
You see?
It say that they still are not sure so where the hell suppose to be this evidence?
Get real Ben.
These guys still don't know what is the difference between the mind and the consciousness so how they possibly work out whether the mind is a product of the brain or the mind and consciousness are two separate things or the consciousness is a product of the mind or the other way around.
And how would they know whether the NDEs are real or hallucinationS when in fact physical science can not go over the border of this physical world and into the superconscious mind?
But as old granny said............IS NEVER TOO LATE TO LEARN.

---

The problem with you however is that you wait, wait and wait for ever to find out whether there is something or not above the mind and in this way you will never get any evidence.
In this way the mind drag itself in the most dry of the desert.
I guess it is very difficult to find much evidence that normal life exist when you drag yourself in the middle of the desert.

Well thank you very much for your concern. But you really have the wrong guy. I don't wait for evidence to believe what can't be justified. Most of my beliefs about who I am, how I work and how to live a life are based primarily on irrationally held beliefs. I just don't take those important beliefs from a book or from a teacher. Rather, I grock them directly through experience and reflection on that experience. I too rely quite a bit on intuition even though I find the idea of a science based on intuition pretty funny.

So try not to worry too much about me, okay. I'm fine. I see no desert around me, quite the opposite. I like this life very much and it makes sense to me. I wonder if you assume your subjective conclusions are the only correct ones. While I prefer my own I don't claim them as objective truths and would never be so rude as to suggest anyone put aside their own directly felt beliefs for my own. Why do you?

You got to be very very careful mate.
Junkies, thieves and so many other people who do the wrong thing have a very developed intuition related to how they can avoid the cops but this intuition is not based on the conscious mind, it is rather build up by the lower portion of the mind.
I am not saying that you too derive this intuition from the lower portion of the mind.
All i am telling you is that you better be careful where you derive this intuition from.

---

Nothing come for free anywhere so how do you expect to perceive God by doing absolutely nothing?

Except you want us to accept your beliefs for free.

Rather than worry whether i want you to accept my believes or not you should worry whether my believes make sense or not.
Does or does not make sense that if you want to know someone whether it is God or that beautiful girl that you have seen you should do something to draw their attention so to get a reciprocation?
This is the issue not whether i want you to convince you or not.

And how do you know that they are deluded?
That is why i asked you for evidence.
Capishhh?

The deluded cannot accept that doesn't agree with their already agreed conclusion. So try again.

Start from the beginning surgen.
First of all you got to make sure that there was an agree conclusion.
After that you can proceed to the next step not before.

Who cares?
Just go around your street corner and see your local dealer.
If he doesn't look like a zombies he must be an exception.
On the other hand someone who achieve peace of mind naturally look healthy and bright.

Thats just stupid.

It is very stupid to see how a junkie can be compared to a very healthy person which build up his-her health by doing the correct thing.

Gee, i should try what you are suggesting, you never know surgen.

Then you have accepted the pink-invisible-dinosaur-robot-hybrid into your testicles?

I used to have nightmares in the past so i had similar experiences but no not now thanks.

We got people who are castrated so why not regarding a castrated physical world.
Gee, surgen you try always your best but you keep on failing time and time again.

You fail again. There are other people who have working testicles. Their testicles keep the physical world from disappearing into non-existence.

No more nightmares please.
That time is over now.
God within bring peace of mind while nightmares bring bad feeling so guess who i choose?

[Surgenator]

Except you want us to accept your beliefs for free.

Rather than worry whether i want you to accept my believes or not you should worry whether my believes make sense or not.

Not.

Does or does not make sense that if you want to know someone whether it is God or that beautiful girl that you have seen you should do something to draw their attention so to get a reciprocation?

I have seen many beautiful girls. I haven't seen even one god.

This is the issue not whether i want you to convince you or not.

You want me to seek something that hasn't been shown to exist. You might as well tell me to seek big foot. People claim to have seen big foot, but all of their evidence is pile of bullshit.

The deluded cannot accept that doesn't agree with their already agreed conclusion. So try again.

Start from the beginning surgen.
First of all you got to make sure that there was an agree conclusion.
After that you can proceed to the next step not before.

hock: thats bad advise. I first have to agree on the conclusion? The deluded's conclusion is wrong.

Thats just stupid.

It is very stupid to see how a junkie can be compared to a very healthy person which build up his-her health by doing the correct thing.

Look up "natural fallacy" and "strawman" while your at it.

Then you have accepted the pink-invisible-dinosaur-robot-hybrid into your testicles?

I used to have nightmares in the past so i had similar experiences but no not now thanks.

Nice try, but you clearly have not accepted the pink-invisible-dinosaur-robot-hybrid into your testicles.

You fail again. There are other people who have working testicles. Their testicles keep the physical world from disappearing into non-existence.

No more nightmares please.
That time is over now.
God within bring peace of mind while nightmares bring bad feeling so guess who i choose?

God is an illusion, let the pink-invisible-dinosaur-robot-hybrid help you. It will make your testicles whole again.

[Little Rik]

Rather than worry whether i want you to accept my believes or not you should worry whether my believes make sense or not.

Not.

Does or does not make sense that if you want to know someone whether it is God or that beautiful girl that you have seen you should do something to draw their attention so to get a reciprocation?

I have seen many beautiful girls. I haven't seen even one god.

This is the issue not whether i want you to convince you or not.

You want me to seek something that hasn't been shown to exist. You might as well tell me to seek big foot. People claim to have seen big foot, but all of their evidence is pile of bullshit.

Start from the beginning surgen.
First of all you got to make sure that there was an agree conclusion.
After that you can proceed to the next step not before.

hock: thats bad advise. I first have to agree on the conclusion? The deluded's conclusion is wrong.

It is very stupid to see how a junkie can be compared to a very healthy person which build up his-her health by doing the correct thing.

Look up "natural fallacy" and "strawman" while your at it.

I used to have nightmares in the past so i had similar experiences but no not now thanks.

Nice try, but you clearly have not accepted the pink-invisible-dinosaur-robot-hybrid into your testicles.

No more nightmares please.
That time is over now.
God within bring peace of mind while nightmares bring bad feeling so guess who i choose?

God is an illusion, let the pink-invisible-dinosaur-robot-hybrid help you. It will make your testicles whole again.

Among that pile o'dung i choose one of your comment when you say that you have seen girls but you haven't seen God.
This by the way is also a comment that i was going to answer to the guy who show a brain with the pineal gland.
I was going to ask him........good now that you have shown the pineal gland can you show me the mind?
Why not surgen, we all know that the mind is there but we can not see it.
The same apply to your girls.
You can see something physical like the girls but you can NOT see God BECAUSE he is not something physical.
And of course we can not see the mind because it is something NON physical.
So does this means that God is not there just because your physical senses can not grasp his presence?
You never thought about it surgen, did you?

[Cyberman]

"Look - there it isn't!"

[Whateverist]

You got to be very very careful mate.
Junkies, thieves and so many other people who do the wrong thing have a very developed intuition related to how they can avoid the cops but this intuition is not based on the conscious mind, it is rather build up by the lower portion of the mind.
I am not saying that you too derive this intuition from the lower portion of the mind.
All i am telling you is that you better be careful where you derive this intuition from.

Words to live by. Here is hoping we both get through life without tapping into the wrong intuition-feed, or from a charlatan teacher for that matter.