I think...

[Watson]

Ha! Why do you think I'm here? I find it fascinating how the atheist mind works, too.

[Purple Rabbit]

Welcome in guinea pig farm!

So what will be your next logic defying trick. Are you gonna burn your son here so as to evoke some action from the almighty ass sitter. Bring it on!

[Violet]

But basically what God was 'saying' through Jesus is "I'm not too high and mighty to join my creations and walk among them." Basically, even if the entire story of Jesus was fabricated, it's still one big demonstration of how God works, on a more grandiose scale than the other stories in the Bible. Jesus, the man, was basically walking among us to show that we could live in peace, love, and harmony if only we put the effort in to do so.

Perhaps you are right... but if you were then would it not be likely that the entire bible is fabrication designed only for his entertainment and intrigue, and that we have ceased to interest him for a rather long time indeed?

What I mean is this:

A galaxy is a massive, gravitationally bound system that consists of stars and stellar remnants, an interstellar medium of gas and dust, and an important but poorly understood component tentatively dubbed dark matter.[1][2] The name is from the Greek root galaxias [γαλαξίας], meaning "milky," a reference to the Milky Way galaxy. Typical galaxies range from dwarfs with as few as ten million[3] (107) stars up to giants with one trillion[4] (1012) stars, all orbiting the galaxy's center of mass. Galaxies can also contain many multiple star systems, star clusters, and various interstellar clouds. The Sun is one of the stars in the Milky Way galaxy; the Solar System includes the Earth and all the other objects that orbit the Sun.

There are probably more than 170 billion (1.7 × 1011) galaxies in the observable universe.

Forgive me if I cannot see any reason whatsoever for "God" to have held more than a cursory interest in us. There might even be multiple universes, and who knows how many more galaxies that would add up to?

The Christians don't even hold a consensus with each other as to what "God's" interest in us was/is for... why would I want to waste my time reading a book that holds not even a superficial interest to me? I don't believe 'God' even exists... and he is certainly too high and mighty to present himself to the world (although it would likely take a great deal more for me to think of him as a god, granted).

Edit: it's just wiki, but here's the link anyway http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy

[Purple Rabbit]

To put it mildly, if the message is right, it comes with the worst possible references. You better make a case for some moral good from a rational POV and I'm sure we would all be ears. But it requires that you think for yourself. Can you do that?

---

Meanwhile since cherry picking is your game I present you this, to kill time (among other things):

"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2, NIV.

"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16, NIV

Cute chap that one!

[Welsh cake]

...a good book for some of you to read would be Joshua by Joseph Girzone(sp?). It's very good for understanding Jesus' message and the differentiations between chuch and God as a figure. It's a good read for Christians and atheists alike, and I'd urge some of you to check it out.

Which one? Joseph F. Girzone wrote more than one Joshua book, and I don't intend to read an entire series regurgitating the same old messages of Christ over again, whilst trying to provide a 'spiritual meaning' and be 'profound' in its own right.

On second thoughts, you provide the extract(s) in question and we'll give it an evaluation.

Jesus =/= his own message. In other words, the message itself is real, even if the man is not.

Reread what you just typed. Go on.

Most, if not all theists wouldn't just object to your submission there, they'd come down on you like a ton of bricks, because of its dishonesty.

As a self-proclaimed Christian you are NOT in the position to believe, nor speculate, Jesus was a product of fiction, because it consequently invalidates the entirety his messages/teachings for you - they'd cease to have any kind of meaning and/or relevance in your day-to-day life.

[Violet]

Reread what you just typed. Go on.

Most, if not all theists wouldn't just object to your submission there, they'd come down on you like a ton of bricks, because of its dishonesty.

As a self-proclaimed Christian you are NOT in the position to believe, nor speculate, Jesus was a product of fiction, because it consequently invalidates the entirety his messages/teachings for you - they'd cease to have any kind of meaning and/or relevance in your day-to-day life.

Actually, his statement that Jesus ≠ his own message is true. His further summation that the message is real, even if he is not, is also true. It would be untrue only in that it didn't actually come from 'Jesus'.

[Welsh cake]

Actually, his statement that Jesus ≠ his own message is true. His further summation that the message is real, even if he is not, is also true. It would be untrue only in that it didn't actually come from 'Jesus'.

I'm not doubting the Bible's existence, what I'm addressing is the lack of honesty in that statement. As a Christian he cannot simultaneously say Jesus is real and then go on speculate that he may not even exist at all. He either believes Christ is real or he does not, there is no middle ground.

[Violet]

Actually, his statement that Jesus ≠ his own message is true. His further summation that the message is real, even if he is not, is also true. It would be untrue only in that it didn't actually come from 'Jesus'.

I'm not doubting the Bible's existence, what I'm addressing is the lack of honesty in that statement. As a Christian he cannot simultaneously say Jesus is real and then go on speculate that he may not even exist at all. He either believes Christ is real or he does not, there is no middle ground.

However fictional a person is, a person they remain. I honestly don't see how a Christian can't believe in Jesus, and still speculate that he might not have "existed". I do it all the time with gods... i don't believe in any of them, but i speculate about them all the time

I believe Sherlock Holmes is real... i don't care wether he really 'lived' or not. I think what Wastson means is that even if Jesus was just a fabrication, it doesn't dilute "his" message any. While we can recognize Doyle as the author behind Holmes (Though I can only honestly recognize Doctor Watson as the author... it is that well written imo)... we don't really know who the authors behind Jesus were. Nonetheless... Jesus has 'messages', even if they were not said/writ by him... in the same way as Holmes said "Singularity is almost invariably a clue. The more featureless and commonplace a crime is, the more difficult it is to bring it home."

Had Doyle said that without using Holmes, he would have sounded very hypocritical indeed together with his belief in fairies.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

...a good book for some of you to read would be Joshua by Joseph Girzone(sp?). It's very good for understanding Jesus' message and the differentiations between chuch and God as a figure. It's a good read for Christians and atheists alike, and I'd urge some of you to check it out.

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but oh well, I wanted to post it somewhere.

(1) No offence,but why on earth should I read anything you recommend? So far I've seen little evidence of critical or independent thought from you.

(2) Your suggestion is patronising in the extreme. Many of the people here are former Christians who developed the ability to think rationally about their superstitions. Many have a deep knowledge of Christian doctrine ,theology and history.

(3) Books on the life of Jesus,Christianity and theology all have the same basic flaw: A presumption that there is a god,which is in fact THE disagreement between theists and atheists . The books are meaningless to this atheist. You're getting a little ahead of yourself. First prove the existence of god. Until that time,kindly keep your inane and patronsing suggestions to yourself.

[LEDO]

...a good book for some of you to read would be Joshua by Joseph Girzone(sp?). It's very good for understanding Jesus' message and the differentiations between chuch and God as a figure. It's a good read for Christians and atheists alike, and I'd urge some of you to check it out.

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but oh well, I wanted to post it somewhere.

I read it decades ago as a Christian and thought it was very interesting, but God-on-earth was still an underachiever. It gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling, but so does pissing down my leg.

Now if you want a really good book about Jesus in the 20th century, Tom Robbins, Another Roadside Attraction was far more entertaining and you can read it while you were high.