Catholic miracles

[Heywood]

An event that happens "over and over again" can most certainly be a miracle! A miracle is a violation of physics or natural law. If every time an airplane was about to crash, the plane became suspended in midair a few feet off the ground, allowing all the passengers to get off... that would be a miracle no matter how many times it happened. And the fact that your alleged miracle happened almost 400 years ago is reason to doubt it, because it's impossible to verify. Remember... extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Well if that is the case then every time an atom randomly decays a miracle has occurred because causality is violated. Of course the science community doesn't believe its a miracle....they simply decided that at the quantum level, causality no longer applies. What is a violation of the natural law of causality every instant is now just how the world works.

[Cyberman]

Well if that is the case then every time an atom randomly decays a miracle has occurred because causality is violated.

How?

[Heywood]

Well if that is the case then every time an atom randomly decays a miracle has occurred because causality is violated.

How?

Bell's theorem tells us that all the predictions of quantum mechanics cannot be explained by a theory of hidden local variables. Some events must happen without local causes. This is exactly the kind of miracle Thor is asking for, and it happens every instant. Its happening all around him.

But because it happens with regularity....it isn't a miracle....it is simply the way the world works.

[Thor]

How?

Bell's theorem tells us that all the predictions of quantum mechanics cannot be explained by a theory of hidden local variables. Some events must happen without local causes. This is exactly the kind of miracle Thor is asking for, and it happens every instant. Its happening all around him.

But because it happens with regularity....it isn't a miracle....it is simply the way the world works.

We're talking about divine miracles here. No one is praying for the type of thing you're talking about here.

[Heywood]

Bell's theorem tells us that all the predictions of quantum mechanics cannot be explained by a theory of hidden local variables. Some events must happen without local causes. This is exactly the kind of miracle Thor is asking for, and it happens every instant. Its happening all around him.

But because it happens with regularity....it isn't a miracle....it is simply the way the world works.

We're talking about divine miracles here. No one is praying for the type of thing you're talking about here.

You said a miracle was something that violated a natural law. Causality is a natural law and quantum randomness violates it. It satisfies your definition of miracle. Now you are moving the goal posts. Now miracles have to be violations of a natural law that were prayed for in advance.

But your picking up the goal post and moving them down the field farther doesn't change the veracity of my point. If miracles were regular occurrences they wouldn't be considered miracles....they would just be the way the world works. Suppose I cut my arm off and the next morning I wake up and its returned like I never lost it. If such an occurrence happened once and only once it would be a miracle whether or not I prayed for it. If it happened every time someone lost a limb...it would be spontaneous regeneration of limbs. If it happened to most people but not all, those it didn't happen to would be diagnosed with idiopathic non spontaneous limb regeneration syndrome. Kids would secure pledges and make long walks to find a cure for this ailment.

And if prayer is really a requirement of a miracle. No problemo....Let me do like Dunning did and invent some new details and then assume them to be facts. I propose a legion of angels are praying for atoms to decay. My proposal is true so therefore the miracle of atomic decay is still a miracle even by your new and more rigorous standard that miracles be prayed for in advance.

[abaris]

My proposal is true so therefore the miracle of atomic decay is still a miracle even by your new and more rigorous standard that miracles be prayed for in advance.

As opposed to your arm growing back, which is observable and proven to be impossible, atom decay is simply a newly discovered phenomenon we don't have an answer for - yet.

If every person having discovered something new automatically said miracle, we would still be living in the stone ages. We know the answers to a lot of questions that weren't even asked at the time when your alleged limp growing man claimed his miraculous recovery.

[vorlon13]

Biggest fucking Catholic miracle is so many of the pedo priests didn't do much or any prison time.

[Heywood]

As opposed to your arm growing back, which is observable and proven to be impossible, atom decay is simply a newly discovered phenomenon we don't have an answer for - yet.

It is possible that atomic decay has a cause and we just don't know what it is. What ever causes atomic decay is going to have its own cause. What Bell's theorem tells us is that if Quantum mechanics is true, at some point some things must happen without local causes. This not a gap in our understanding.....this is our understanding.

You can't hide behind the "nature works in mysterious ways" defense here.

[abaris]

You can't hide behind the "nature works in mysterious ways" defense here.

Never would say that. I'm saying we don't know as of yet. When the first railways were build, some scientists were certain people would suffocate when going over a certain speed.

Today we know the answer. Nothing misterious about. Just a gap in knowledge that may be filled within the next few decades.

[Heywood]

You can't hide behind the "nature works in mysterious ways" defense here.

Never would say that. I'm saying we don't know as of yet. When the first railways were build, some scientists were certain people would suffocate when going over a certain speed.

Today we know the answer. Nothing misterious about. Just a gap in knowledge that may be filled within the next few decades.

There is no gap. We know that some quantum events cannot have a local causes. Right now it seems that atomic decay is one of those quantum events that do not have a cause. If it turns out it does have a cause, then there will be something else which doesn't appear to have a local cause. This is a requirement of our current physics. Miracles are a requirement of our current physics(except we don't call them miracles).