Can objective morality exist in Atheism?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

But there is no absolute morality in the bible either.

Actually, the Bible contains many moral absolutes,as Richard Dawkins pointed out only last night on Australia's 'Q&A' programme.

Examples he gave included stoning people for committing adultery and punishing people for breaking the Sabbath. The commandment is 'thou shalt not steal" ,"thou shalt not commit adultery' etc,there are no equivocations. They are moral absolutes.

Moral absolutism and religion

Moral absolutism may be understood in a strictly secular context, as in many forms of deontological moral rationalism. However, many religions have morally absolutist positions as well, regarding their system of morality as deriving from the commands of a god. Therefore, they regard such a moral system as absolute, (usually) perfect, and unchangeable. Many secular philosophies also take a morally absolutist stance, arguing that absolute laws of morality are inherent in the nature of human beings, the nature of life in general, or the universe itself. For example, someone who believes absolutely in nonviolence considers it wrong to use violence even in self-defense. For another example, under some religious moral absolutist beliefs, homosexual behavior is considered fundamentally wrong, even in a consensual relationship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_absolutism

[tackattack]

Yes Judaism has the mosaic laws as moral absolutes. Christians have a less immutable set of rules not based entirely off of laws written by man, but laws written on the hearts of men.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Yes Judaism has the mosaic laws as moral absolutes. Christians have a less immutable set of rules not based entirely off of laws written by man, but laws written on the hearts of men.

The Ten Commandments remain the moral backbone of Christianity. Admittedly Saul abrogated most of The Law* even though Jesus admonished his follower to keep The Law.



* 'The Law' refers to Mosaic law,and it is known collectively 'the mitzvot' or commandments.There are 613,not 10.

Your claim is naive at best,disingenuous at worst.

[tackattack]

Did I say there were only 10 Mosaic laws? I believe Jesus was here to take the laws from misuse to be spiritually in line with God's will. Jesus' new laws subsumes the old one: in other cases it replaces it. Most of Christianity, including myself, follow moral nomianism. However, I don't see wearing mixed fibers or not planting the corners of your field that relevant to today. I don't base my morals off the Bible, but the 10 commanmendt do reflect what I aspire to well.
"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts."—Hebrews 8:10

So which am I naive or disingenuous?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Did I say there were only 10 Mosaic laws?

Mea culpa,you did not. I obviously made an unwarranted assumption. Probably because Christians demonstrably do not in fact follow much of Mosaic law at all and [for Christians] a common interpretation of the term 'Mosaic Law' is The Ten Commandments.

I have no idea what you mean by morality coming from the hearts of men. Do you perhaps mean that men [or at least Christian men] are essentially good? A not uncommon belief,but one which is unprovable and unfalsifiable.

My observation is that morality is pragmatic, not derived from any transcendent moral authority.


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The 613 Mitzvot (Hebrew: תרי"ג מצוות‎: Taryag Mitzvot, "613 commandments") are statements and principles of law and ethics contained in the Torah or Five Books of Moses. These principles of Biblical law are sometimes called commandments (mitzvot) or collectively as the "Law of Moses" (Torat Moshe, תורת משה), "Mosaic Law", or simply "the Law" (though these terms are ambiguous and also applied to the Torah itself)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot

Depending on context and in widening order, Mosaic law may refer to the observance of:

* The Ten Commandments, basis for the 613 Commandments
* The 613 Commandments (613 Mitzvot), basis for the Biblical law
* The Biblical law, the legal aspects of the Torah
* The Torah, the founding texts of Judaism, first part of the Tanakh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_law

[MysterMenace]

If Atheism obtains (God does not exist) is there a source for morality other than oneself that is objective?

Yes, it's universal, it's called pain.

[Rhizomorph13]

Tackattack,

I looked up nomianism and isn't that akin to following all the laws in the torah? Every encyclopedia I found online had nomianism pointing right at the Torah and much of the mentions from Google refer to anti-nomianism. Anti-nomianism seems more in line with the idea that law is "written on the heart" so as to NOT need a body of law written down. So please clarify what you mean by "moral nomianism."

Padraic,

You said,

Do you perhaps mean that men [or at least Christian men] are essentially good? A not uncommon belief,but one which is unprovable and unfalsifiable.

I think we can create tests to prove this assumption false through observational psychology. Create situations then record the results? What do you think?

Thank you,
Rhizo

[tackattack]

@padriac- Yet Sae still gave kudos... sigh...
No not that all Christian men are good. It's more like all People have the potential to know, instinctively what is right and wrong. That the origins of this are objectively outside and attributed the the absoluteness of God's Moral Law as referenced in the scripture above.

As far as objectifiable I agree it's not. That doesn't mean it's not subjectively falsifiable and peer-reviewed. I would try more towards what Rhizzo was heading at.

@Rhizzo-

Here's a good reference for moral nomianism http://s3.amazonaws.com/tgc-documents/jo...Nelson.pdf
It basically explains that modern interpretation of the mosaic laws classify them as sins against God and sins against the Church. The ritualisting laws prohibiting wearing of mixed fibers, requiring washing of hands, etc. aren't typically required of anyone outside of Judaism. The sins against God are moralistic absolutes derived from God's word on men's hearts and scribed by Moses. Jesus came and told people they were misconstruing the laws and expanded some of them to be more inclusive. One example would be Kill is a sin against God. Jesus further stipulates that not only killing , but hating is wrong.
Anyways, most Christians follow the ten commandments alone and Jesus' teaching so most Christians would be moral nomianists. Most also have no idea what that term means, they just do what preacher tells them.

[Autumnlicious]

It is of my opinion that morality is best boiled down to "Don't be a douchebag"

Still, it feels nice to argue the merits of nomadic goat herder ideology instead of finding the minimal components derived from wide scale analysis of human and primate social groupings to see why and how group mores and emergent morality occurs.

[tackattack]

I think for you it just feels nice to argue j/k Chuck doesn't argue he's always right