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RE: Is free will real?
December 21, 2014 at 10:56 am
(This post was last modified: December 21, 2014 at 10:59 am by IATIA.)
Whether on not free will is truly free or whether it is deterministic does not alter the fact of our perception. We perceive some actions and attribute a value to that action and ultimately a value to the person engaging in that action. At a deterministic level, it could promote survival in avoiding or mingling with that person or group.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 21, 2014 at 11:08 am
(December 21, 2014 at 10:56 am)IATIA Wrote: Whether on not free will is truly free or whether it is deterministic does not alter the fact of our perception. We perceive some actions and attribute a value to that action and ultimately a value to the person engaging in that action. At a deterministic level, it could promote survival in avoiding or mingling with that person or group.
Yes, so my point kind of is that free will does not obviously have a connection to the praiseworthyness of anyone or any action, because it is not established how free will, however defined, figures into the ethical aspects of this decision making.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 21, 2014 at 11:19 am
(This post was last modified: December 21, 2014 at 11:19 am by IATIA.)
Whether to buy a ferrari or give the money to an orphanage is a choice. This choice is made whether it is truly free will or a deterministic choice.
Either way, previous/present experiences, exposures, desires, gains, losses, etc. will lead to the final choice being made.
Even plants make 'choices' depending on the environment.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Is free will real?
December 21, 2014 at 1:34 pm
Is free will real?
No it is something we have no choice but to manifest. We couldn't be entirely determined if we tried. So no because yes.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 22, 2014 at 5:17 am
(This post was last modified: December 22, 2014 at 5:23 am by bennyboy.)
I want to point out the difference between big-r "Reality" and reality as we live it. The line isn't sensibly drawn at free will: everything we think, feel and experience is real in its own context, and unreal in a more global context. In my life, for example, Mom and apple pie are images of comfort. My childhood mother was hugs, support, softness, a nice smell-- safety. In the context of the life of a child, those are pretty much the most real things that exist. In the context of physical reality, of course, Mom is a complex bundle of nerves. She loves me because her brain is wired, via her DNA, to love. She provides support because she has the instinct to do so. She smells good to me because I, in turn, am programmed to experience whatever chemicals are oozing from her pores as pleasant. Every force that caused her to treat me like a special little snowflake is, in fact, evidence that I am not one-- and neither is anyone else.
The guy cutting in front of me in traffic is really a prick. In the context of my life, my world view, and my experiences, he's clearly a dysfunctional, willful, asshole, who's decided that it's his job to insult me, to disregard the rules of safety that give me comfort when driving, etc. However, in the context of physical reality, he too is a bundle of nerves, not importantly different than the bundle of nerves I call Mom. His brain functions almost identically, and is equally deterministic, DNA-based, and instinct-driven.
So let's not draw the line at free will. Does humanity exist as anything more than a biological robot? Does the self exist? Does meaning, in any form, really exist? I contend that free will exists at least as much as any of the other things we consider concrete aspects of human life. It has to-- because all those concepts are tied into the instinctive understanding of free will. You don't get to throw out the baby unless you're willing to give up the bathwater as well, if you'll pardon me for abusing that metaphor.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 22, 2014 at 5:56 am
(This post was last modified: December 22, 2014 at 5:56 am by robvalue.)
I hate babies though. I want to throw it out.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 22, 2014 at 6:50 am
@ bennyboy
What does existence even mean, in your use, for abstract things such as "meaning"?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Is free will real?
December 22, 2014 at 7:57 am
What is the meaning of meaning? What are you smoking?
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RE: Is free will real?
December 22, 2014 at 8:01 am
(December 15, 2014 at 4:15 am)The_greatest_river Wrote: What do you think?
To the extent that you can make decisions or choices that are not rational or predictable, yes free will exists.
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RE: Is free will real?
December 22, 2014 at 8:10 am
(This post was last modified: December 22, 2014 at 8:27 am by The Grand Nudger.)
The minute we have to draw a line between big and little r realities, or claim that things are real "in their own context" that just about settles how fictional they are. Christian Grey is real in his own context. 
I do get what you're trying to say though Benny...and I do agree that free will is at least -as real- as many other things in human experience. I don't see what's lost or gained by free will personally. It's easy for me to throw it out,I suppose, since there seems to be no difference between having it or not having it. I'm not sure what it is that's tied to free will - I think maybe those things are tied to free will for you but how exactly do we demonstrate that something is tied to an unknown. Does the mooring proceed from something tangible and then terminate mid-air..indian rope trick style? In any case, there is only a very minor difference between our positions on the matter. I'd call free will as real as a procedural stack or a program instruction - but also as "unreal" as both. The experience -of it- I'm willing to chalk up as fantasy whole cloth. Even if I have free will and I am using it...some of the things I experience -as- Free Willing™ I positively know are not. That knowledge doesn't seem to alter the experience, of course.
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