Help me solidify a thought please.

[tackattack]

OK, my mind is tired and I'm trying to solidify a thought. I'll start with some simple questions. Let you guys start some discussion, I'll get up discuss some and then let you know where my train is going so you can tell me where it derails. Thanks in advance.

1- Can we as conscious entities, choose to be anything but who we are?

2- Please define (no dictionary, we can all see that) definition and discernment in regards to human want for classification.

3- What is free will?

[Dotard]

1. Please elaborate on what you mean by "who we are".

2. What?

3. Just a descriptor we use describing our ability to make choices.

[tackattack]

1. If our self-identity is our consciousness, can we as conscious entities, choose to act any way contrary to our consciousness?

2. How do you distinguish between our ability to define something and our ability to discern it's value or meaning.

[Dotard]

1. Yeah sure, why not?
My conscious knows I should not steal from others. It's my personal policy not to steal from others. I can choose to steal from another if I so choose to do so.

2. I still don't get it. I can define things, I can also discern personal value or meaning. What do you mean exactly by distinguishing between the two?

[Violet]

2. How do you distinguish between our ability to define something and our ability to discern it's value or meaning.

I don't see the difference... to define is to "discern?" value/meaning. I'm not quite sure what your asking here :S

[theblindferrengi]

Free Will and consciousness are advanced subroutines of life, which is a function of biological mechanisms.

[tackattack]

see sae doesn't differentiate definition and value... That's what I'm trying to see.
1.So we can use our consciousness to act differently than our consciouness would?

2. Can you distinguish between the definition of something and it's value through discernment? How do you do that?

@ferrengi - I like that answer for 3.. I was hoping for a little more than mental construct though.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

1.So we can use our consciousness to act differently than our consciouness would

You're asking for an opinion on the free will/determinism dichotomy? COULD we act differently? I believe probably not,but no one knows. I've dealt with my position on this matter in another thread. I feel I'm a free agent at a visceral level,but intellectually ,my reason tells me that this is an illusion. Humans generally and individually are predictable most of the time. OR can we act against conscience? Of course,we do it all the time. We then use religion/ morality/expedience/the greater good to justify the most appalling behaviour. (Iraq for example)

Cicero observed that in war the law is ignored. I'd go so far as to say this is the case for most of us when we become sufficiently terrified,lustful or greedy.

2. Can you distinguish between the definition of something and it's value through discernment? How do you do that?

I know I've changed my views on things,but don't know if it's through discernment. EG Now an agnostic atheist, I was,brought up devout Catholic. I no longer believe in god(s) nor do I believe that the Abrahamic god with his ascribed attributes can even be discussed in any meaningful way..After reading Marx I came to believe one of out basic concepts is untrue.IE we believe objects have an intrinsic value; they don't. Is this the kind of thing you mean?

[tackattack]

yes very much in line with what I'm talking about please continue, when I have time I'll look up some Marx stuff. Please in the meantime continue everyone.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

yes very much in line with what I'm talking about please continue, when I have time I'll look up some Marx stuff. Please in the meantime continue everyone.

I suggest read some Marx first.

Your public library will have a copy of 'Capital'. Perhaps have a glance at 'exchange value' and 'false consciousness'.

OR perhaps start here:

In political economy and especially Marxian economics, exchange value refers to one of four major attributes of a commodity, i.e., an item or service produced for, and sold on the market. The other three aspects are use value, value and price.

Thus, a commodity has:

* a value
* a use-value (or utility)
* an exchange value
* a price (it could be an actual selling price or an imputed ideal price)

These four concepts have a very long history in human thought, from Aristotle to David Ricardo,[1] becoming ever more clearly distinguished as the development of commercial trade progressed. This entry focuses on Marx's summation of the results of economic thought about exchange-value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exchange_value

False consciousness is the Marxist thesis that material and institutional processes in capitalist society are misleading to the proletariat, and to other classes. These processes betray the true relations of forces between those classes, and the real state of affairs regarding the development of pre-socialist society (relative to the secular development of human society in general).

This is essentially a result of ideological control which the proletariat either do not know they are under or disregard with a view to their own POUM (probability/possibility of upward mobility)[1]. POUM (not to be confused with the Workers' Party of Marxist Unification, POUM) or something like it is required in economics with its presumption of rational agency; otherwise wage laborers would be the conscious supporters of social relations antithetical to their own interests, violating that presumption[2].

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_consciousness