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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 15, 2015 at 9:15 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2015 at 9:16 pm by bennyboy.)
(January 15, 2015 at 9:11 pm)Heywood Wrote: Every evolutionary systems we've observed coming into existence has required an intellect or intellects. The only thing worse than a parrot is a wrong parrot.
(January 15, 2015 at 9:11 pm)Heywood Wrote: Show us an observation of an evolutionary system coming into existence without an intellect. Look in the mirror.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 15, 2015 at 9:21 pm
(January 15, 2015 at 9:15 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (January 15, 2015 at 9:11 pm)Heywood Wrote: Every evolutionary systems we've observed coming into existence has required an intellect or intellects. The only thing worse than a parrot is a wrong parrot.
(January 15, 2015 at 9:11 pm)Heywood Wrote: Show us an observation of an evolutionary system coming into existence without an intellect. Look in the mirror.
If what he were saying were true then lightening would need Thor and Hurricanes would need Poseidon to cause them. I bet he thinks lightening and hurricanes are not complex events.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 15, 2015 at 9:22 pm
(January 15, 2015 at 9:15 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (January 15, 2015 at 9:11 pm)Heywood Wrote: Show us an observation of an evolutionary system coming into existence without an intellect. Look in the mirror.
We did not observe the origination of the evolutionary system which is responsible for our existence so that is not a valid example. Your faith that said evolutionary system did not need an intellect is not sufficient.
Evolutionary systems come into existence today. All those evolutionary systems which come into existence today require intellects. Can you give an example of an evolutionary system which came into existence while humans were around to observe it which did not require an intellect?
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 15, 2015 at 10:21 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2015 at 10:24 pm by IATIA.)
(January 15, 2015 at 9:11 pm)Heywood Wrote: (January 15, 2015 at 8:18 pm)IATIA Wrote: Intellect came from evolution, not the other way around.
I know you believe that as a matter of faith, but certain observations of the world suggest your belief isn't correct. Every evolutionary systems we've observed coming into existence has required an intellect or intellects. Further we've never observed an evolutionary system come into existence that did not require intellect or intellects. These observations are evidence which support the proposition:
All evolutionary systems require intellects
If you have any evidence to support your proposition...that evolutionary systems can exist without intellects....then I would like to see it. Show us an observation of an evolutionary system coming into existence without an intellect. You have made the claim, but here you go.
First cell on earth. STUPID. > evolution > First man on earth. SMART.
However, you have yet to do anything but make a claim. Not one example, not one shred of evidence. In all these pages. nothing but, "I have faith". BFD. You are a perfect example of evolution without intellect.
The defense rests.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 15, 2015 at 10:31 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2015 at 10:32 pm by bennyboy.)
(January 15, 2015 at 9:22 pm)Heywood Wrote: Your faith that said evolutionary system did not need an intellect is not sufficient. I don't need faith, because I don't normally make assertions about why reality is what it is. That's what you do. Generally, I take what is observable at face value. If more features become observable, then my view of something changes.
Evolution is a reality. The degree and mechanism of specific kinds of evolution (like genetic evolution) can be debated. But the fundamental principle of evolution isn't really debatable: stuff happens, and some of it causes a state of organisation that persists longer than other states. Over time, this statistical reality leads to the existence of more complex forms.
Quote:Evolutionary systems come into existence today. All those evolutionary systems which come into existence today require intellects. Can you give an example of an evolutionary system which came into existence while humans were around to observe it which did not require an intellect?
Ahhhh, this is black and white marbles again. You are smart enough to get the problem with your logic, but you do not wish to. The things you are using as evidence are not proper evidence for your proposition. Instead, you have a pretty obvious false syllogism.
"People make objects, therefore all objects were made by people" doesn't work. Nor does "Intellectual beings make objects, therefore all objects were made by intellectual beings." It doesn't mean that your conclusion is wrong-- maybe there IS a God guiding evolution. Unfortunately, however, it does mean that the evidence you are providing (and asking for) cannot logically lead to an understanding of whether anything in nature (outside what we've created) is rooted in intellect or deliberate design.
In short, you're doing it wrong.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 15, 2015 at 10:34 pm
Same example as the first time you asked - your own example, in fact..since you decided that it was an "evolutionary system". Procedural generations. Your virtual spider. Didn't stop you then, won't stop you now.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 15, 2015 at 10:35 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2015 at 10:36 pm by bennyboy.)
(January 15, 2015 at 9:22 pm)Heywood Wrote: We did not observe the origination of the evolutionary system which is responsible for our existence so that is not a valid example.
The evolutionary systems found to exist in the natural universe are not valid examples of evolutionary systems in nature?
lolwut? 
Pretty sure the OP is about the thing you are currently claiming to be invalid.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 15, 2015 at 11:13 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2015 at 11:18 pm by Heywood.)
(January 15, 2015 at 10:21 pm)IATIA Wrote: First cell on earth. STUPID. > evolution > First man on earth. SMART.
However, you have yet to do anything but make a claim. Not one example, not one shred of evidence. In all these pages. nothing but, "I have faith". BFD. You are a perfect example of evolution without intellect.
The defense rests.
Sorry dummy,
Your claim that the first cell on earth arose without the aid of intellect is based solely on your faith and not any observation.
You will have to try harder.
(January 15, 2015 at 10:35 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (January 15, 2015 at 9:22 pm)Heywood Wrote: We did not observe the origination of the evolutionary system which is responsible for our existence so that is not a valid example.
The evolutionary systems found to exist in the natural universe are not valid examples of evolutionary systems in nature?
lolwut?
Pretty sure the OP is about the thing you are currently claiming to be invalid.
Benny, the evolutionary system which created you is not an example of an evolutionary system known not to have required an intellect because we have no observations of its coming into existence.
I know you believe it came into existence without intellect, but that belief of yours is based on faith and not any objective observation.
My belief that evolutionary systems require intellects is based on observations I have made of evolutionary systems whose circumstances of origination are known to me and I find each an every one of them requires intellect.
Based on observations the proposition that all evolutionary systems require intellect is more likely to be true than the proposition that not all evolutionary systems require intellect.
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 15, 2015 at 11:21 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2015 at 11:21 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Your own example of a procedural gen is an example of an evolutionary system - decided to be so...by you.... which does not require intellect - by definition.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Detecting design or intent in nature
January 15, 2015 at 11:21 pm
(January 15, 2015 at 10:34 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Same example as the first time you asked - your own example, in fact..since you decided that it was an "evolutionary system". Procedural generations. Your virtual spider. Didn't stop you then, won't stop you now.
None of those "procedural generations" would be observable to you or I without an intellect putting them together.
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