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Objective greatness and God
January 7, 2015 at 2:02 am
I think if you believe in objective greatness, you automatically will believe in God. But Atheists will say greatness is all subjective or that there is no connection between objective greatness and God.
I think if you believe there is objective greatness, you will have to believe all possible greatness has an existence and origin and basis that by which we experience objective greatness. I think relative experience of greatness relies on objective greatness existing as well.
To say one subjective experience of greatness is better or worse then another relies on some objective reality of greatness.
But such arguments are not knock out arguments. But I still believe this a good reason to believe in God.
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RE: Objective greatness and God
January 7, 2015 at 2:40 am
Sigh - Mystic, I have no idea what you mean by objective greatness!
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Objective greatness and God
January 7, 2015 at 4:19 am
(January 7, 2015 at 2:02 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I think if you believe in objective greatness, you automatically will believe in God. But Atheists will say greatness is all subjective or that there is no connection between objective greatness and God.
I think if you believe there is objective greatness, you will have to believe all possible greatness has an existence and origin and basis that by which we experience objective greatness. I think relative experience of greatness relies on objective greatness existing as well.
To say one subjective experience of greatness is better or worse then another relies on some objective reality of greatness.
But such arguments are not knock out arguments. But I still believe this a good reason to believe in God.
No disrespect but when I read stuff like this my mind just cannot start to reason what the words my eyes are sending to it actually mean.
I see plenty of posts like this so I'm sure it does mean something to someone. I get the feeling I'm missing out sometimes, I'll just carry on in my simple world...
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RE: Objective greatness and God
January 7, 2015 at 4:58 am
I haven't the first clue either.
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RE: Objective greatness and God
January 7, 2015 at 5:02 am
(This post was last modified: January 7, 2015 at 5:03 am by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
(January 7, 2015 at 2:02 am)MysticKnight Wrote: I think if you believe in objective greatness, you automatically will believe in God. But Atheists will say greatness is all subjective or that there is no connection between objective greatness and God.
I think if you believe there is objective greatness, you will have to believe all possible greatness has an existence and origin and basis that by which we experience objective greatness. I think relative experience of greatness relies on objective greatness existing as well.
To say one subjective experience of greatness is better or worse then another relies on some objective reality of greatness.
But such arguments are not knock out arguments. But I still believe this a good reason to believe in God.
Leaving aside possible definitions of 'greatness' for the moment, this strikes me as simply rewording Plato's 'ideals', which is a weak argument at best.
By way of analogy, consider pizza. We've all had bad pizza, better pizza, and amazing pizza. Through this experience, we can imagine what a perfect pizza would be - a bit more of this, a bit less of that, crust cooked differently, a little hotter - but our imagining doesn't require that a perfect pizza actually exists or is obtainable.
It's the same with the Godly attributes people imagine. I've met some real shits in my life. I've also met some startlingly wonderful people. Via my experience with what people are like, I can picture a person without flaws, with unlimited abilities, with never-ending goodness and so on. In other words, by adding and subtracting my experience with different levels of greatness, I can imagine a maximally great being. In other words, I can imagine an objective standard by which all levels of greatness can be measured. This is effectively equivalent to believing in objective greatness. But believing in the ideal of greatness isn't the same as believing in the actual existence of a maximally great being.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Objective greatness and God
January 7, 2015 at 6:26 am
I spend a lot of my time in a fantasy world of my imagination, where everything is perfect, there is no suffering, everyone can do whatever they want, whenever they want and are happy all the time. I can construct it in one second of imagination but what we actually have at the moment is the best that dumb fuck God could come up with. Hideous failure. Everyone is welcome to come live in my imagination too 
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RE: Objective greatness and God
January 7, 2015 at 6:36 am
Wrong, Boru. I've been to Chicago and New York. I've eaten the THE OBJECTIVELY GREATEST PIZZA! It made me a believer.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Objective greatness and God
January 7, 2015 at 6:41 am
(This post was last modified: January 7, 2015 at 6:42 am by Alex K.)
(January 7, 2015 at 6:36 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: Wrong, Boru. I've been to Chicago and New York. I've eaten the THE OBJECTIVELY GREATEST PIZZA! It made me a believer.
I have to be continental european snob here: you haven't yet had pizza. Sure, you may call whatever it is these Chicagoans do, pizza, but that's just misleading 
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Objective greatness and God
January 7, 2015 at 6:47 am
You're saying you know of THE pizza of which no greater shape and flavor can be conceived?
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Objective greatness and God
January 7, 2015 at 6:50 am
(This post was last modified: January 7, 2015 at 6:50 am by Alex K.)
(January 7, 2015 at 6:47 am)Pickup_shonuff Wrote: You're saying you know of THE pizza of which no greater shape and flavor can be conceived?
I haven't exactly seen it, but I have logical proof, which is just as good:
1) By definition, such a Pizza is a Pizza than which none greater can be imagined.
2) A Pizza that necessarily exists in reality is greater than a Pizza that does not necessarily exist.
3) Thus, by definition, if this Pizza exists as an idea in the mind but does not necessarily exist in reality, then we can imagine something that is greater than this Pizza.
4) But we cannot imagine something that is greater than the greatest pizza of all (you surely will agree).
5) Thus, if this Pizza exists in the mind as an idea, then it necessarily exists in reality.
6) The absolute, objectively greatest, perfect Pizza exists in the mind as an idea. Therefore, it necessarily exists in reality.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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