Blurring the lines.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Drich has a grievance, he thinks that the pope shouldn't be issuing decrees for christendom...after all...that's his job.

-and I quote
"Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors hat - even if it's super fabulous"

[robvalue]

As far as I'm concerned, these lines are drawn by the theists. And they draw more and more lines, until it's just a garbled mess.

From my point of view, don't know if most atheists agree, I couldn't care less what a theist calls themselves. Or whether other theists agree with their classification. To me it's like argueing over the colour of an invisible dog.

What does make me laugh is when people talk about "true" or "real" versions. All you've got is a book, that's as far as the reality of the myths goes. There is no "true" way to build a story about what is real and what is not, in a fictional but somehow real way. Just like there is no "true" way in which all the Harry potter characters actually existed. It's all made up. No one has the authority to say what is and isn't the best, or real, version of made up interpretations of reality.

[Tonus]

You're right, however it's the business of the church and when someone who calls them self a Christian and we call them out, why is it you all jump on the bandwagon and question what we have to say?

As I said above, I take the claims at face value. If a person claims to be Christian and then denies Christ or the Bible, then I figure he's more of a nut than a Christian, but if he professes to follow both then I just go along. The most important thing, to me, is what he believes and why he believes. We have had people here who denied being Christian yet used only the Bible as their source of teaching. Since I do not expect that every person here will make sense, I just shrug my shoulders and move on.

But you do understand that I do not recognize the authority of any individual or church to say who is or is not a Christian, yes? The Bible is too open to interpretation to say that one specific view or the other is the recognizably "true" version. I don't believe in your god or his existence, and I believe that the Bible is just a book of ancient writings cobbled together by men with an agenda that was more political than religious. Thus I don't have any stake in which interpretation is true and which person is following it to the letter. That's for Christians, true or not, to hash out among themselves.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I don't think any of us really care.

If someone wants to call themselves a Christian I don't see what business it is of mine to doubt or question them.

Really? You doubt and question everything else, why stop there?
As Sionnach so eloquently stated..

An individual's word is always mere hearsay without the evidence to back up those words.

I don't have a horse in the race. Theists however do. As far as I'm concerned there are as many types of Christianity as there are christians (this goes for religious adherence in general). Every Christian has their own beliefs, their own wishes, their own desires, their own version of their specific version of their god. Calling one person out and saying "that's not what a christian is" is silly from this perspective because what on earth is a christian? If we reduce it to the common denominator, someone who espouses (at least) the new testament and follows the word of Jésus.

Ok. Got it. It's when you guys come in and start saying "PUT PAUL DOESN'T MEAN THAT!" or "BUT THIS WAS WRITTEN IN THAT CONTEXT! IT CAN'T BE READ LIKE THAT NOW" that the lines become blurred, not when we call out those beliefs as absurd.

As Tonus says above, there is no authority on the planet that I know of (or that is evidenced) that has a legitimate right to tell people whether they're true christians or not.

I don't think any of us really care.

If someone wants to call themselves a Christian I don't see what business it is of mine to doubt or question them.

You're right, however it's the business of the church and when someone who calls them self a Christian and we call them out, why is it you all jump on the bandwagon and question what we have to say?

GC

Because your justification for calling someone not a christian is the exact same reason why they can call you not a christian. Better to accept that there are a myriad of christians out there, each with a myriad of beliefs.

In effect, you guys are happy with other people calling themselves a Christian just so long as it's the type of Christian you want them to be. But if you guys want to have theological fisty-cuffs don't stop on my account.

[Nope]

I think part of the problem with this entire argument is that some theists don't seem to understand that atheists are being honest when they state that they don't believe in god.

If you are a theist the best way to explain is for you to imagine this scenario. A coworker approaches you and confesses he worships the tooth fairy. You might politely nod but you would feel highly uncomfortable with your coworker's weird insistence that an imaginary being was real. Now imagine that another coworker approaches you about the first one. She informs you that the first guy is not a true lover of the tooth fairy because it is apparent that the tooth fairy has lime green wings and not pink. Further, this woman tries to draw you into the argument about who is and who isn't a true follower of Her Holy Toothiness. You scream at them both, "There is no tooth fairy."

That is how I feel after reading through this thread. There is no god. Discussing who is and who isn't a Christian is as silly as arguing who is and isn't a true follower of the tooth fairy.

Drich, before we can have a serious discussion as to whether Mormons or Catholics are Christian, you have to first convince us your imaginary god exists and which version of Christianity is true.

Also, I thought you were a Calvinists Drich. Do you believe that people who aren't Calvinists are Christian, anyway? Is God's Child/Chadwooters/fr0d0/strawdog a Christian?

---

I don't think any of us really care.

If someone wants to call themselves a Christian I don't see what business it is of mine to doubt or question them.

Really? You doubt and question everything else, why stop there?
As Sionnach so eloquently stated..

An individual's word is always mere hearsay without the evidence to back up those words.

Again. ATHEISTS DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD! Why would we waste our time getting into the minutia of who is and who isn't a follower of a nonexistent deity? Do you worry about who isn't a true Hindu or Buddhist?

[robvalue]

Yes, to us saying you are christian means nothing. You are describing a self delusion. Why should we care how people describe delusions? You expect us to demand consistent labelling of an entirely irrational and fictional idea?

[abaris]

Really? You doubt and question everything else, why stop there?
As Sionnach so eloquently stated..

Because we're not invested in your pissing contest of who's got the stronger grip on Jesus's balls. That's between you and everyone else playing the Christian card.

[robvalue]

http://youtu.be/78W52kqQgHw

[Mister Agenda]

I don't think any of us really care.

If someone wants to call themselves a Christian I don't see what business it is of mine to doubt or question them.

Actually I am asking because I would think that you all would not care, therefore when a Christians says a member of a group of people do not follow the faith, if you did not care you would take the Christian's word. But it seems you do have a dog in this race because when ever it comes up, you guys seem to take the role of the defender of the faith, and argue for the faith of one who does not follow the 'rules' of the religion.

We're on the side of logic. That you repeatedly pit yourself against it isn't any personal animus on our part. I'm not a Star Wars fan, but if you claimed that little trash can-looking robot was the villain, that would be a good way to get a comment out of me.

---

Then please explain why you all defend say a Mormon's right to be called a Christian?

For exactly the same reason we defend YOUR right to call yourself a Christian. It's a right. People get to choose how they identify and we owe it to them to take their word about what they are, unless we have a REALLY good reason to dispute it. If someone said they were a Christian atheist, I would at least entertain the notion and consider their reasoning. Although even if I disagree with someone's label for themselves, there's nothing I can do to make them identify differently to please me.

[Thumpalumpacus]

There's a deep irony when people who state that they "have a personal relationship with God" start telling others who also "have a personal relationship with God" that they don't. It's a pity they're incapable of taking that last, most meaningful step.