Statistical Evidence Against Christianity

[Davka]

(insert 'American' in front of 'Christians' and 'non-Christians' for clarity)

So here's the thing; Christianity says it changes people. That's one of the core claims about the faith; it makes you a new and better person, desirous of being loving and of following the teachings of Jesus in the Bible.

In other words, Christians should be living differently from non-Christians. There should be, as the Bible puts it, recognizable "fruit' in their lives.

But statistics tell us a different story. Teen pregnancy rates among Christians are the same as in the population at large. Divorce, drug addiction, alcoholism, domestic abuse, rates of incarceration - all of these tell us that Christians live and act just like non-Christians.

Now, some Christians will tell you that this is because most of the people who call themselves Christians aren't True ChristiansTM - but this argument doesn't hold water. Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that only 10% of the people who identify as Christians are, in fact, ChristiansTM - fair enough?

Well, even if that were true, there would still be a statistically significant difference between the actions of those who call themselves Christians and those who do not. It would be smaller, but it would still exist.

But it doesn't.

Another counter-argument is that we don't know what sort of people these Christians were before they got saved, so we can't really know how much they have changed. Unfortunately, there are plenty of serious jerks among the unsaved as well! And besides, the Bible doesn't say "you will become less of a jerk and end up statistically indistinguishable from the average person." It say's you'll be really, noticeably different - so different, in fact, that the world will know you by your love for one-another.

But we don't. You can't tell the Christians from the non-Christians without asking them. Christians sue each-other just as often as non-Christians. They divorce just as often. This is not particularly "loving" behavior.

Bottom line: The Bible does not deliver on its promise to make people new, more loving, more considerate, or less judgmental. The only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that little label they give themselves when asked (and often tell you even when not asked).

Christians bear no fruit. Unless you count Westboro Baptist.

[Drich]

Just a simple question.. What makes you think anything you listed in the OP are considered "Fruit of the Christian life?'

[Davka]

The Bible.

---

"And he arose from thence and cometh into the borders of Judaea and beyond the Jordan: and multitudes come together unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again. And there came unto him Pharisees, and asked him, "Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife?" trying him.

And he answered and said unto them, "What did Moses command you?"

And they said, "Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away."

But Jesus said unto them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you this commandment. But from the beginning of the creation, Male and female made he them. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh: so that they are no more two, but one flesh.

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

And in the house the disciples asked him again of this matter.
And he saith unto them," Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her: and if she herself shall put away her husband, and marry another, she committeth adultery."

Mark 10, 1-12, ASV

[Lek]

Bottom line: The Bible does not deliver on its promise to make people new, more loving, more considerate, or less judgmental. The only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that little label they give themselves when asked (and often tell you even when not asked).

Christians bear no fruit. Unless you count Westboro Baptist.

As far as teen pregnancy goes, I think that christian girls would be less likely to use birth control or get an abortion. Also, your statistics on divorce are debatable. as you can see at the website below. Non-religious couples might also be more inclined to live together outside of marriage. If they split, it wouldn't be counted as divorce.

http://divorce.lovetoknow.com/Divorce_St...y_Religion

I will stand by the assertion that if a person is truly a christian it will show in their life. In that case, there are probably many fewer christians in the world than there are people who claim to be. Our church has maybe 500 members, but I've never met 350 of them because they're not there on Sundays and they're never helping with the numerous community outreach things we have going on or attending bible study or whatever. I think now that it's becoming okay to be a non-christian, we're losing a lot of dead weight. When the going gets tough is when it's always easier to recognize the true christians.

[dyresand]

Bottom line: The Bible does not deliver on its promise to make people new, more loving, more considerate, or less judgmental. The only difference between a Christian and a non-Christian is that little label they give themselves when asked (and often tell you even when not asked).

Christians bear no fruit. Unless you count Westboro Baptist.

As far as teen pregnancy goes, I think that christian girls would be less likely to use birth control or get an abortion. Also, your statistics on divorce are debatable. as you can see at the website below. Non-religious couples might also be more inclined to live together outside of marriage. If they split, it wouldn't be counted as divorce.

http://divorce.lovetoknow.com/Divorce_St...y_Religion

I will stand by the assertion that if a person is truly a christian it will show in their life. In that case, there are probably many fewer christians in the world than there are people who claim to be. Our church has maybe 500 members, but I've never met 350 of them because they're not there on Sundays and they're never helping with the numerous community outreach things we have going on or attending bible study or whatever. I think now that it's becoming okay to be a non-christian, we're losing a lot of dead weight. When the going gets tough is when it's always easier to recognize the true christians.

Still...though labels are labels it doesn't even matter even too Christianity. Believe in jesus despite the historical evidence that says he never existed and followed the teachings in the bible and believe in a good well you are a Christian. It doesn't matter if someone says you are a true christian or not.

[Minimalist]

So here's the thing; Christianity says it changes people. That's one of the core claims about the faith; it makes you a new and better person

In my opinion it makes them sanctimonious twats. Live and learn, eh?

[Lek]

Still...though labels are labels it doesn't even matter even too Christianity. Believe in jesus despite the historical evidence that says he never existed and followed the teachings in the bible and believe in a good well you are a Christian. It doesn't matter if someone says you are a true christian or not.

True. It doesn't matter if someone says you are a christian or not. What matters is if you are a true follower of Christ or not. I've been called a lot of other things in this forum that I won't mention.

[Michael Schubert]

But statistics tell us a different story. Teen pregnancy rates among Christians are the same as in the population at large. Divorce, drug addiction, alcoholism, domestic abuse, rates of incarceration - all of these tell us that Christians live and act just like non-Christians.

Those people probably aren't Christians anymore. They then realized that sex, anger, attraction to drugs and alcohol and lots of other stuff are natural for humans to do even though the Christians preach against them.

[Lek]

But statistics tell us a different story. Teen pregnancy rates among Christians are the same as in the population at large. Divorce, drug addiction, alcoholism, domestic abuse, rates of incarceration - all of these tell us that Christians live and act just like non-Christians.

Those people probably aren't Christians anymore. They then realized that sex, anger, attraction to drugs and alcohol and lots of other stuff are natural for humans to do even though the Christians preach against them.

You're right in saying that these are natural attractions for humans. We're naturally attracted to eating food, but obesity is bad for us. So are many drugs and too much alcohol. I believe that there are many natural attractions that are bad for us and should be resisted. Do we just give in to anything that is natural for us to want?

[Cyberman]

Actually, yes. It's called being human; and that's something which tends to get thrown overboard in the race to claim moral superiority. That things taken to excess can be a detriment to the human condition is largely irrelevant.