Race and Religion and evolution. OP/ED

[Brian37]

I think race and ethnicity should never be an excuse to exempt someone from criticism... Just because you are a black man, it doesn't mean I cannot criticize your actions as a person; and that goes for every minority or traditionally discriminated group ever.

I don't side with the liberals in my country precisely because they are overprotective of minorities and everything that offends their views is "racist". That's an insult to people who've actually been victims of racism

I agree with protecting minorities, but not to the point we give them taboos.

Humans need to think about the fact we are all majorities and minorities depending on geographics.

I value the government to protect your right to make whatever claims you want, but claims are not humans, claims are what humans make.

[Regina]

In my opinion it is absolutely insulting to every person who has experienced racism on biological grounds (due to skin colour/physical appearance) to call criticism of Islam "racism".

Criticism of Islam is criticism of a culture - behaviours, lifestyles, beliefs. It has nothing to do with biology. Now, it would be racism to see a brown Middle Eastern looking person, assume they are Muslim based on their appearance, and completely unprovoked attack them. That's racism. Criticising Islam for honour killings of "disobedient" women and homosexuals is not racism.

It is not even "oppression" of any kind. To call it "oppression" would imply there has been some unfair treatment. There's nothing unfair about being told you can't force oppressive practices of your religion onto other people.

[Brian37]

In my opinion it is absolutely insulting to every person who has experienced racism on biological grounds (due to skin colour/physical appearance) to call criticism of Islam "racism".

Criticism of Islam is criticism of a culture - behaviours, lifestyles, beliefs. It has nothing to do with biology. Now, it would be racism to see a brown Middle Eastern looking person, assume they are Muslim based on their appearance, and completely unprovoked attack them. That's racism. Criticising Islam for honour killings of "disobedient" women and homosexuals is not racism.

It is not even "oppression" of any kind. To call it "oppression" would imply there has been some unfair treatment. There's nothing unfair about being told you can't force oppressive practices of your religion onto other people.

That is exactly why the world should not let either Jews or Muslims pull a bait and switch and move the goal posts from race to religion then move it back. They use it interchangeably as a dodge.

It is possible in that region of the world to have both dark skin and light skin people on both sides of the boarder. And with both sides having a majority, they both are not monochromatic as far as religions. It still amounts to claiming rights to set up a social pecking order.

This allows both sides to hide behind their "chosen people" tribalism.

[Dystopia]

I think it's naive to think there's no racism. In the case of atheists, particularly "new atheists" and anti-theists it's linked to religion because we often criticize other religions like Christianity.

But look at ultra conservative parties in Europe - They criticize immigrant Muslims mostly (not so much white native citizens who converted to Islam) and any non-white immigrant, minority or not - While at the same time they have good relationships with the church because it's "the west's founding religion".

I agree that thinking atheists, particularly the ones more liberal oriented are not in it for racism, but conservatives usually bring up the anti-Islam position for different reasons, very different - It's not because they're Muslims, it's because they're not Christians and have a different culture, whether it's good or bad.

All of this to say there's many angles to look on the problem, and while criticizing religion is not racist, there's people who do it for racial or monocultural reasons. We should be careful with our approach, I do not want to be associated with white nationalists because I'm anti-Islam and I don't want to be their ally.

[robvalue]

I think race is irrelevant. It's one of any number of ways to try to "classify" people. But to even go that far is kind of assuming those people have something inherently in common. As has been pointed it, even if you talk about bloodline, this is such a wide net as to be useless.

I say focus on individuals, their beliefs and their actions.

I don't like "culture" or "tradition" as an excuse for having your beliefs or actions freed from criticism either. That's lame.

[Brian37]

I think it's naive to think there's no racism. In the case of atheists, particularly "new atheists" and anti-theists it's linked to religion because we often criticize other religions like Christianity.

But look at ultra conservative parties in Europe - They criticize immigrant Muslims mostly (not so much white native citizens who converted to Islam) and any non-white immigrant, minority or not - While at the same time they have good relationships with the church because it's "the west's founding religion".

I agree that thinking atheists, particularly the ones more liberal oriented are not in it for racism, but conservatives usually bring up the anti-Islam position for different reasons, very different - It's not because they're Muslims, it's because they're not Christians and have a different culture, whether it's good or bad.

All of this to say there's many angles to look on the problem, and while criticizing religion is not racist, there's people who do it for racial or monocultural reasons. We should be careful with our approach, I do not want to be associated with white nationalists because I'm anti-Islam and I don't want to be their ally.

I didn't say there was no racism, where in this thread did I or anyone say it didn't exist? Knowing it exists doesn't mean it should be used as cover to avoid the real issue of religious tribalism.

[Dystopia]

I didn't say there was no racism, where in this thread did I or anyone say it didn't exist? Knowing it exists doesn't mean it should be used as cover to avoid the real issue of religious tribalism.

I wasn't saying you did. I was saying it is dangerous to say there's no racism, in fact I don't have any data on it but I'm betting a significant part of anti-Islam people are ultra conservatives who are upset Christianity is decreasing in terms of followers.

But yeah, it shouldn't used as cover; however we should identify those who criticize Islam because it is a harmful religion, and accuse those who do it because Muslims are not white native westerns.

[Brian37]

I didn't say there was no racism, where in this thread did I or anyone say it didn't exist? Knowing it exists doesn't mean it should be used as cover to avoid the real issue of religious tribalism.

I wasn't saying you did. I was saying it is dangerous to say there's no racism, in fact I don't have any data on it but I'm betting a significant part of anti-Islam people are ultra conservatives who are upset Christianity is decreasing in terms of followers.

But yeah, it shouldn't used as cover; however we should identify those who criticize Islam because it is a harmful religion, and accuse those who do it because Muslims are not white native westerns.

Once again, I agree, it IS dangerous to say there is no racism. I am saying that we as a species need to understand to MINIMIZE the harm of bad thinking, you have to face it exists to get to the point of more understanding that we are NOT a separate species.

America still has a huge problem so I am well aware and not ignoring it.

Humans have a bad tendency when they don't like having a mirror put to their arguments, to bait and switch. That is all I was saying.

Jews and Muslims have been interchanging race and religion to avoid the real problem which is religious tribalism.

[Dystopia]

I agree with you on that last line, bringing race into the mix is a nice argument to avoid criticism, particularly because western societies are constantly worried about racism and racial persecutions since WWII; it is also easy for the common peasant to believe it is about race and not religion.

Personally, I like to criticize religion and never the believer as a person, creating a clear line between belief and race to avoid problems.

[AFTT47]

Just had a bleeding heart liberal atheist on twitter claim I was protecting racism by not allowing religion to be treated as a race.

Brian, I don't know why you chose to falsely present this as a left/right argument. I'm very socially liberal and I agree with everything you said. You made a very good case but you won't win over anyone on the left by using a term like, 'bleeding heart liberal'. I can't speak for all liberals but those are fighting words to me. They'll work just fine if your objective is to piss someone off. If you're trying to sell them on an argument though, not so much.