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Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
#1
Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
Discussion
right now there is an intellectual dispute between 2 major metaphysical views, idealism and materialism. with dualism bankrupt in its internal inconsistency (which is the interaction problem), so these are the only 2 competing metaphysical views on the nature of reality. is it fundamentally physical, or fundamentally mental? this dispute is important as they both have some religious implications to them. materialism implies determinism (we have no free will), atheism, and the absence of an afterlife. idealism implies libertarian free will, theism, and the possibility if not probability of an afterlife. how can we establish idealism is more reasonable than materialism?
note this is not a proof of one being true and one being false, rather this is just showing which is more reasonable given the information we currently have. everyone should be interested in not just any position, but the most reasonable one. this argument is going to make use of Cartesian skepticism and Occam's Razor.
materialists often like to think they hold the most reasonable perceive a physical world as by Occam's Razor it is unnecessary to postulate a fundamentally mental world. for those that don't know, Occam's Razor states the most reasonable position is the position that makes the fewest assumptions, as it is not pragmatic to make unnecessary postulations to explain what we experience. ironically, it is the materialists that are in violation of Occam's Razor. we do not directly experience a physical world. as René Descartes found with his exercise of Cartesian Skepticism; we can doubt everything, even the very physical world we seem to experience. but we cannot doubt our own conscious experience. he is famous for the quote "I think therefore I am" basically establishing our ability to doubt is proof of our own existence and conscious experience making it the one thing we cannot doubt. the very fact that consciousness is the one thing we cannot doubt makes it the most fundamental part of our experience, not the physicality of the world. so to suggest something is more fundamental than consciousness would be in violation of Occam's Razor since it would be making an unnecessary postulation to explain our experience. we already cannot doubt the existence of consciousness and cannot doubt it is the most fundamental part of our experience, so to postulate something is more fundamental would be presumptuous and unverifiable since we cannot affirm what is outside our conscious experience. therefore it is most reasonable to assume our consciousness is most fundamental as you cannot deny its existence and you cannot deny it is most fundamental to our conscious experience. again, this is not proof for idealism; rather it establishes it as the more reasonable position.

Objections
1. Monistic Idealism does not necessarily imply theism. it is perfectly compatible with atheism.
actually, it is not and this can be shown with epistemic investigation. there are essentially 2 different monistic idealist views, poly-consciousness and mono-consciousness. poly-consciousness representative of the general idealistic view that there are many distinct yet similar minds all experiencing the same world and are able to interact with one another. mono-consciousness is representative of the metaphysical solipsist view that your own personal mind is all that exists and any other minds that may exist are merely constructed from your own mind. concerning the poly-consciousness view, there is a need for explaining how distinctly separate yet similar minds can interact in a commonly shared world. the only coherent answer to this is they all have a fundamental commonality. given monistic idealism, this commonality between consciousness can only be a greater consciousness or super conscious to which we are all a part of. this super conscious would contain all minds and project the apparently physical world we experience enabling our interaction with it and each other. since this super conscious contains everything that exists in accordance with monistic idealism, it would therefore have full control over its own conscious states which in essence is full control over everything which would make it omnipotent. it would also contain all knowledge which would make it omnipotent. as you can see this super conscious is looking more and more like God and in fact they are ontologically indistinguishable. investigating the mono-consciousness view, or solipsist view, you can see striking similarities between that world and the poly-consciousness world. the only difference is in a solipsist world, you are the super conscious which is essentially saying you are God. I would say such a view is not reasonable since you don't have control over the world you experience or even all your conscious states; but that's another topic. the point is both views of idealism imply theism and there is no coherent alternative.

2. your idealist view postulates the existence of a super conscious to explain the many minds connection which is unverifiable while materialists postulate the existence of a physical world to which these many minds are derived. therefore the 2 make the same number of assumptions and though they are different are necessary to explain the many minds connection.
this is a well thought out objection but seems to miss something. both do make a necessary assumption to explain the many minds connection, but the materialist assumption includes assuming a separate substance than what we directly experience to explain this connection. the most fundamental thing in our experience is consciousness, and materialism assumes material that is distinctly separate from consciousness to which consciousness is derived. if consciousness is the most fundamental part of our experience, why assume there is something more fundamental to which consciousness is derived? idealism makes fewer assumptions by saying consciousness is fundamental and the super conscious is merely accommodating this belief to make it compatible with the many minds belief. so the super conscious is verifiable to a monistic idealist given it is necessary for its internal consistency.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.
-Galileo
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#2
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
Can I ask you a question? What is, in your idealism, the role of the human brain?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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#3
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
(February 2, 2015 at 3:16 am)Alex K Wrote: Can I ask you a question? What is, in your idealism, the role of the human brain?

the brain is the representative of our personal consciousness. it is our consciousness' self localization in this apparent physical world. the brain can interact on the mind much like a whirlpool interacts on water. you cannot say the whirlpool produces water just because it affects water much like you cannot say the brain produces consciousness because it affects mind. this is the mind brain interaction I conceive in my idealism.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.
-Galileo
Reply
#4
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
(February 2, 2015 at 3:24 am)Rational AKD Wrote:
(February 2, 2015 at 3:16 am)Alex K Wrote: Can I ask you a question? What is, in your idealism, the role of the human brain?

the brain is the representative of our personal consciousness.
That's meaningless babble to me.
Quote:it is our consciousness' self localization in this apparent physical world. the brain can interact on the mind much like a whirlpool interacts on water.
Sorry, that's not even English. What do you mean, a whirlpool interacts on water. Are you saying that consciousness is indeed a result of brain function just as a whirlpool is a configuration of water?
Quote:you cannot say the whirlpool produces water just because it affects water much like you cannot say the brain produces consciousness because it affects mind.
That's not a good use of the analogy. A whirlpool is a name we give to a certain configuration of water. In your analogy, consciousness is a name we give to certain configurations of the brain. That's materialism.
Quote:this is the mind brain interaction I conceive in my idealism.

By needlessly postulating a separate mind, and a mind brain interaction, you violate Occam's razor in such an extreme way that you lose the entire argument.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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#5
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
(February 2, 2015 at 3:32 am)Alex K Wrote: Sorry, that's not even English. What do you mean, a whirlpool interacts on water. Are you saying that consciousness is indeed a result of brain function just as a whirlpool is a configuration of water?
perhaps I did not use the best words. I meant to say there is an interaction between the whirlpool and water. in the analogy, the whirlpool is representative of the brain and the water is representative of mind. mind produces brain even though interaction done upon brain can cause changes in mind.

(February 2, 2015 at 3:32 am)Alex K Wrote: A whirlpool is a name we give to a certain configuration of water.
and the brain is a certain configuration of mind, the image localization within the apparent physical world to be more specific.

(February 2, 2015 at 3:32 am)Alex K Wrote: In your analogy, consciousness is a name we give to certain configurations of the brain.
you have it backwards. water represents mind and the whirlpool represents brain in the analogy. brain is a certain configuration of mind.

(February 2, 2015 at 3:32 am)Alex K Wrote: By needlessly postulating a separate mind, and a mind brain interaction, you violate Occam's razor in such an extreme way that you lose the entire argument.
I do not postulate a "separate mind." the mind I am referring to is our own consciousness as already proven to be real by René Descartes and that everything including the brain is derived from consciousness. it is you that postulate unnecessarily the existence of material, a substance distinct from consciousness even though consciousness is the most fundamental part of our experience. you assert material or physicality is most fundamental even though it is proven by Cartesian Skepticism that you can doubt the existence of material but you cannot doubt the existence of consciousness.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.
-Galileo
Reply
#6
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
(February 2, 2015 at 3:59 am)Rational AKD Wrote:
(February 2, 2015 at 3:32 am)Alex K Wrote: By needlessly postulating a separate mind, and a mind brain interaction, you violate Occam's razor in such an extreme way that you lose the entire argument.
I do not postulate a "separate mind." the mind I am referring to is our own consciousness as already proven to be real by René Descartes and that everything including the brain is derived from consciousness.
I think J.P. Sartre would disagree that Descartes proved that.
Quote:it is you that postulate unnecessarily the existence of material, a substance distinct from consciousness which is the most fundamental part of our experience. you assert material or physicality is most fundamental even though it is proven by Cartesian Skepticism that you can doubt the existence of material but you cannot doubt the existence of consciousness.

I don't think your simple application of these cartesian ideas is compatible with Occam's razor.

(Apart from the fact that with your approach you essentially end up with solipsism)

I think you are missing something very important: you think postulating the material is an unnecessary complication. This is a sleight of hand on your part, though.

Your mind, or the universal mind you propose, contains all the structures which we identify as the material world - including the human brains, which are known to contain much of the machinery necessary to produce the processes of the mind. You can even test this hypothesis by manipulating your brain with stimuli and observing the effects on your consciousness and mind.

Now, in your picture of idealism, it is wholly unnecessary to have structures in this mind world which correspond to biological machines which process memories, thoughts, sensations, looking and behaving exactly as if the mind were produced by material means.

Since these structures are obviously there and impact the mind exactly as would be expected from a mind which arises from this material brain, it violates Occam's razor to postulate that the mind is not a product of the material brain.

So, at the end of the day, all the structures which we call material, are there even in your idealistic picture, all you end up doing is relabelling "the material" as "the mind", and by shifting the baseline like that you are masking the further complications you introduce. This is an exercise devoid of actual content, a convention of language, not a philosophical distinction.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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#7
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
(February 2, 2015 at 4:12 am)Alex K Wrote: I think J.P. Sartre would disagree that Descartes proved that.
he proved that you cannot doubt the existence of your own conscious experience. consciousness is essential to conscious experience, therefore he proved that the existence of consciousness cannot be doubted. do you doubt consciousness? because that means you are conscious.

(February 2, 2015 at 4:12 am)Alex K Wrote: I don't think your simple application of these cartesian ideas is compatible with Occam's razor.
Cartesian skepticism is an application of logic, just the same as Occam's Razor. how is logic incompatible with logic?

(February 2, 2015 at 4:12 am)Alex K Wrote: (Apart from the fact that with your approach you essentially end up with solipsism)
the only thing Cartesian Skepticism implies with the use Occam's Razor is idealism. you may say it is unnecessary to postulate the existence of many minds when you only need to postulate the existence of your own mind, but that's where I use evidence arguments against solipsism which I didn't feel the need to post here since both positions imply theism.

(February 2, 2015 at 4:12 am)Alex K Wrote: you think postulating the material is an unnecessary complication.
if it is necessary then you have a firm defeater for hard solipsism. do you have this defeater? because you could revolutionize philosophy if you did.

(February 2, 2015 at 4:12 am)Alex K Wrote: In the end, though, your mind, or the universal mind you propose, contains all the structures which we identify as the material world - including the human brains, which are known to contain much of the machinery necessary to produce the processes of the mind. You can even test this hypothesis by manipulating your brain with stimuli and observing the effects on your consciousness and mind.
and as I've said this only proves a correlation between mind and brain, not that brain produces mind. brain can affect mind without causing it.

(February 2, 2015 at 4:12 am)Alex K Wrote: Now, in your picture of idealism, it is wholly unnecessary to have structures in this mind world which correspond to biological machines which process memories, thoughts, sensations...
you confuse what is necessary for the explanation and what is necessary for the process. of course it's not necessary for mind to create an apparently independent physical world... but that doesn't mean it can't. Occam's Razor only sheds unnecessary postulations to fit what we experience. it doesn't shed postulations because the don't necessarily produce the results we experience. you equivocate what is necessary to postulate and what is necessary of the postulation. there don't need to be these structures and mechanisms given idealism... but that is what we experience so we cannot deny that we experience them. we only need to postulate why they exist. and given what I've said, monistic idealism is more reasonable for explaining this than materialism.

(February 2, 2015 at 4:12 am)Alex K Wrote: looking and behaving exactly as if the mind were produced by material means.
you are begging the question here. you assume you know what material looks like and how it behaves even though you only experience mental projections of this material. according to materialism; color, taste, sound, etc. don't actually exist in the material world. those are just in our heads and what exists outside is a world of material governed by consistent laws and mathematics. it is you who postulate the world is not what we perceive it to be, full of color, sounds, and tastes.

(February 2, 2015 at 4:12 am)Alex K Wrote: Since these structures are obviously there and impact the mind exactly as would be expected from a mind which arises from this material brain, it violates Occam's razor to postulate that the mind is not a product of the material brain.
if these materials are actually mental projections, it makes perfect sense given our experience that these mental projections impact our mental states. in idealism, all that is material is actually mental. it makes sense that mental structures affect mind. with this consistency it seems unnecessary to postulate physical substances that we do not observe and in fact are impossible to observe since we cannot observe what is outside our conscious states.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.
-Galileo
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#8
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
(February 2, 2015 at 4:51 am)Rational AKD Wrote:
(February 2, 2015 at 4:12 am)Alex K Wrote: Since these structures are obviously there and impact the mind exactly as would be expected from a mind which arises from this material brain, it violates Occam's razor to postulate that the mind is not a product of the material brain.
if these materials are actually mental projections, it makes perfect sense given our experience that these mental projections impact our mental states. in idealism, all that is material is actually mental. it makes sense that mental structures affect mind. with this consistency it seems unnecessary to postulate physical substances that we do not observe and in fact are impossible to observe since we cannot observe what is outside our conscious states.

As I said, you have simply renamed "the material" to "the mental". As soon as you do anything beyond this, you are disregarding occam's razor.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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#9
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
(February 2, 2015 at 4:57 am)Alex K Wrote: As I said, you have simply renamed "the material" to "the mental". As soon as you do anything beyond this, you are disregarding occam's razor.
no I have not. your materialist view is that matter/physicality is fundamental and my idealist view is that mind/consciousness is fundamental. you do not have proof of your metaphysical view so you cannot beg the question asserting matter is fundamentally matter. I challenge your metaphysical view saying idealism, the view that mind is fundamental and everything is derived or comprised of it; fits better with what we experience. it is not relabeling, it is question the fundamental nature of the world. what i'm proposing is much more than semantics. the difference is you think physical is fundamental and consciousness is derived and I think consciousness is fundamental and physical is derived. see the difference yet? I suggest you take some lessens in epistemology and metaphysics as you do not understand the difference between materialism and idealism.
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use and by some other means to give us knowledge which we can attain by them.
-Galileo
Reply
#10
RE: Idealism is more Rational than Materialism
Explain how it is not semantics?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

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