converting back unto theism - yes it's true.

[Tiberius]

I'd agree with Darwinian. I mean, I can think back to many times in my youth where I felt very "religious", but I'm not going to convert back to Christianity because of those. I'd prefer a logical reason over an emotional one.

[leo-rcc]

I don't dispute that, it was the "then I suspect that you had never truly left in the first place" part I wasn't too happy with. Besides, the motivation to reconvert is a personal one obviously or TW would have mentioned it.

[Frank]

You're attributing men and their fanatical excuses to religion as a whole which usually instills a message about doing good works. Or are you blaming Chritianty and Muslims with all the war attrocities in the world specifically?

nope not all, just the unnessesary ones... not that any are nessesary.. there are religous wars and political wars.. political wars are for power where religious wars are over who has the right invisible freind. But Political wars of late dont go into genocide... In bosnia in the 90's it was started by Christians who got tired of having to listen to the muslims pray ect... there were towns where if your house wasnt marked with a Cross it was brunt to the ground and anyone (even children) trying to exscape were shot and killed. THOUSANDS of muslim women were RAPED and if they fought back they were killed... All in the name of an Invisible friend.. So like me you probably live in a free/religious tolerant country. Growing up i was taought that everyones religion was to be respected ...live and let live.. But as I got older and opened my eyes to what realy went on ...well Atheist says it all.... I was in the military and seen first hand what religion does to blasphemers. I talked to the old lady visiting her husbands grave that was besides her sons and her sons family.. all the little stones all in a row.. one little old lady just pressing on with life.. alone... All in the name of my god is bigger than your god..... Thats the day I lost respect for religion.... and im not blaming just those 2 religions just about any religion large enough to field an army has done so in the name of there invisible friend

As an atheist I'm certainly not trying to act as an apologist for religiosity - but don't you think if these people didn't fight over religion, they would have probably found something else to fight over?

I'd say religion is a symptom of a characteristic of human nature we haven't come to fully understand yet. I think maybe our survival instinct can work against us under certain conditions. For instance, early man formed tribes, because it was beneficial to hunt and work in groups. It's a survival mechanism. However, dualistic thinking also seems to be an inherited trait. I'm not a evolutionary or socio-biologist (so I'm not sure how this trait originated - perhaps because of some sort of instinctual paranoia developed through natural selection as a survival mechanism ... who knows), but it seems to be a predominant feature of human psychology. Sometimes our survival instinct combines with our predisposition towards dualism to produce a bad result.

We're pattern seeking creatures who like explanations for things. Obviously early man must have been overwhelmed by natural phenomena, and their general lack of understanding of the natural world probably resulted in all sorts of bizarre superstitions that ultimately led to the development of more complex religious systems (just to mention one of what must have been numerous factors that contributed to the development of modern religion). However, if these conditions didn't exist, groups would have cooperated for different cultural reasons, and there's no evidence to suggest we would be any less dualistic as a result (so we can fairly assume fighting between different groups of people would still happen).

However, religion presents a particularly difficult problem (which I fully acknowledge). Dealing with irrational religious faith is much different than dealing with a secularized form of tribalism (like say linguistic or racial differences). I guess my point in all this dribble is, as rational thinkers, we shouldn't allow ourselves to become overly influenced by emotive arguments. The religious usually sincerely believe what they purport to believe (with some obvious exceptions); and religious mythology is a product of our intellectual development as a species (I guess I'm trying to say we should look at it forensically rather than politically ... I don't know). I'm shutting up now ... LOL?

[TruthWorthy]

If you call remembering my own baptism IN LATIN vividly which happened as an infant, then ok.

[Zhalentine]

If you call remembering my own baptism IN LATIN vividly which happened as an infant, then ok.

How old were you? And what brought about this sudden realization that you remembered your baptism vividly?

[Welsh cake]

Yes, now that you've decided not to let this fellow



do all your thinking for you and tell you how to behave and what to do you can escape from the nice comfortable life of a mindless obedient automaton :S

At least Dawkins doesn't ever claim he's infallible.

[TruthWorthy]

If you call remembering my own baptism IN LATIN vividly which happened as an infant, then ok.

How old were you? And what brought about this sudden realization that you remembered your baptism vividly?

I would have been around one years old. I'm not sure what brought it on, maybe I wanted to remember it, maybe I asked to, who knows.

Yes, now that you've decided not to let this fellow



do all your thinking for you and tell you how to behave and what to do you can escape from the nice comfortable life of a mindless obedient automaton :S

At least Dawkins doesn't ever claim he's infallible.

I can't say as to the Pope's infallibility, all I do know is that Pope Benedict is the primary reprasentative of the Catholic church.

[Tiberius]

If you call remembering my own baptism IN LATIN vividly which happened as an infant, then ok.

Not to try and "deconvert" you again, but I have a few skeptical questions:

1) How do you know it was *your* baptism. (i.e. what makes you so sure it isn't just a dream / delusion you were having).

2) Do you remember what the Latin was, or just that there was Latin in the ceremony? If the latter is true, could you explain in more detail what was said. If not, could it be possible that this was just a dream and your subconscious was interjecting basic knowledge of events onto it. For example, most people remember things that happen in dreams, but not exact details.

[TruthWorthy]

I'd agree with Darwinian. I mean, I can think back to many times in my youth where I felt very "religious", but I'm not going to convert back to Christianity because of those. I'd prefer a logical reason over an emotional one.

I think emotions can be logical, at least as a naturally following response to something with a more tangible basis.

I don't dispute that, it was the "then I suspect that you had never truly left in the first place" part I wasn't too happy with. Besides, the motivation to reconvert is a personal one obviously or TW would have mentioned it.

It was a very personal experience. Thanks for pointing out that error, attributions of belonging to a group aren't constant.
Cheers guys, I suppose I can stay with AF as any other member.

---

If you call remembering my own baptism IN LATIN vividly which happened as an infant, then ok.

Not to try and "deconvert" you again, but I have a few skeptical questions:

1) How do you know it was *your* baptism. (i.e. what makes you so sure it isn't just a dream / delusion you were having).

2) Do you remember what the Latin was, or just that there was Latin in the ceremony? If the latter is true, could you explain in more detail what was said. If not, could it be possible that this was just a dream and your subconscious was interjecting basic knowledge of events onto it. For example, most people remember things that happen in dreams, but not exact details.

I think the biggest separater is that the memory exists as a subjective experience whereas my imagined/dreamed experiences are always objective.
I will find the priest who baptised me to ask on a couple of details about the way he performed bapticisms back then to see if it was an accurate memory, otherwise it could have been envisioned, or fabricated.

[Tiberius]

How are your dream experiences objective? Sorry, I don't quite understand your point on that one.

If you are going to ask the priest, remember to be unbiased. Don't mention why you are asking him, otherwise he may just agree with what you are saying in order to get you back in the church. If I were you, and as skeptical as I am, I'd approach him saying we were doing a project about our baptisms for some school / university project.