(February 2, 2012 at 9:27 am)reverendjeremiah Wrote: This is one of the reasons I came to realize that, after prcticing magick for a decade I decided to dump it. I came to the conclusion that all I was doing was fooling myself with mystical thinking, equivocations, and soft fuzzy words that could come to mean anything...or really doesnt mean anything.
And if a word really means nothing, then it can be used to describe anything and everything.
Like the word "magick"
I'm sorry to hear that the concept didn't pan out for you. Everyone creates their own expectations and criteria. If those expectations and criteria aren't satisfied then they forfeit the concept. And rightfully so.
I certainly don't blame you for abandoning something that wasn't working for you.
Quote:On the other hand, my book of shadows was quite beautiful. I put alot of my own artwork into it and I was quite proud of it. That is, until the cops took it from me and never gave it back. They were convinced that I had written a personal account of sacrificing humans in secret code inside of it, and they had code specialists trying to crack it....lol...in reality it was just a bunch of symbols I made up on the spot out of creativity and lots of hallucinogenics.
That's a shame. Sorry to hear about.
Quote:There are some things I still do from that time period in my life. Practicing lucid dreaming is one of them (what you would call "astral travelling") and power to will, in which you visualise what you want to help focus on attaining it. conjuring spirits are bullshit. Opening "gates" to spirit worlds is bullshit. conscrating the circle is bullshit....
Yes, the lucid dreaming (I prefer to call "Shamanic Journeying") is also a huge focal point for me. In fact, I'm actually far more into shamanic journeying than actually orchestrating magick. I very seldom use magick. There simply isn't anything that I need magick for.
I think one reason that so many people fail at orchestrating magick (or have it fail for them) is because ultimately they are shooting for egotistical goals that they genuinely don't even want. They only think they want them. And that is never going to work.
Either that, or they try to use magick to control the actions of other people which is just as foolish.
About the only thing I use magick for is for personal health issues and it's been working pretty well in that regard.
But yes, the shamanic journeying is the most valuable aspect of it to be sure. At least it is for me.
(February 2, 2012 at 1:46 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Sounds like you've just redefined magic in a way that it is no longer magical, congratulations. The limitations of the term magic are bordered by it's definition and use, perhaps you should pick a different word to argue over, if your magic isn't magical.
Neither of those two concepts have any footing in reality, they are magical. Science does not make a claim to perfect understanding, but we do know enough to rule those two out.
Again, your argument is a purely semantic one.
Science does not fully understand the true nature of reality.
Therefore science
cannot rule out the unexplainable.
You're simply claiming that science can rule things out that it can't.
Forget about the semantics of terms like "magic" with or without the "k".
That only serves to confuse the issue truly.
My stance is quite simple and factual.
Current modern science does not have a fully explanation for the true nature of reality. In fact, it may ultimately have no even scratched the surface for all we know.
Therefore mechanics that cannot be explained by science cannot be ruled out by science.
i.e. Science cannot claim that "magical processes" cannot occur.
Science simply isn't armed with the ability to make that kind of statement.
If you think otherwise, you are deluding yourself.
Quote:Different because you've added a "K" new ager? I think not. What may exist is not magic. Except by your un-magical definition of what magic is.
In my spiritual work I add a "K" to the term simply to distinguish it from stage "magic" which is the art of illusion and deception.
Quote:That things cannot be explained does not make them magical.
Well, again, that's arguable.
Consider the following:
Supposed we actually encountered a "magical being" who could not only do things that we can't explain, but who could even cause actions that appear to totally defy our current laws of physics.
We would say that this being is a "magical" being.
However, if you then discovered all the "secrets" of how this magic was being done and you say that it was all done through technology that you didn't formally understand, then you'd say, "Well it's not magic at all. It's just a technology that we didn't previously understand".
Well gee whiz. That's all that "magic" amounts too. Technologies and/or processes that we don't yet understand.
I'm not claiming that there is no "physics" at all behind processes that I call "magical". I just accept that whatever physics causes it we have yet to understand.
Hey, even modern scientists are speculating about mutiverses and multiple dimensions. They seriously talk about the possibility that other entire universes may exist "right next door" in another dimension that we can't currently easily detect.
For all we know there may be beings living in some of those other universes who can "reach" into our and cause seeming "violations" to our apparent laws of physics.
Scientists have not only not ruled that out, but they are even speculating that such situations may actually exist.
So how can you say that it's a 'fact' that magic does not exist.
You have no clue, and neither does science.
Quote:Magic by argument from ignorance? Give me a break.
WHOA! Hold on a minute!
You are attempting to turn this around on me.
I did not claim that it is a 'fact' that magic exists.
You are the one who claimed that it's a 'fact' that magic does NOT exist.
Let's get that straight right now.
So I am not arguing "magic" by ignorance. Although I do hold that there may exist technology of physics that we currently do not yet understand that today we could call "magical" if we saw it in action.
As far as I'm concerned the very event of the Big Bang, and things like Quantum Entanglement etc, are examples of "magic" (i.e. processes that we truly have no technological or physical explanation for or understanding of)
In that sense we have examples right in front of us that "magic" exists. (i.e. processes that we can't explain actually occur)
Quote:The most successful theory of science ever? LOL, sure, why not, I'll roll with it. QUANTUM, this man said quantum. Quantum has the magical ability to make anything magical, apparently? Do you want to talk magic or science?
Sure, I'll be glad to talk science.
Quantum Mechanics is indeed the most successful theory of science ever.
Do you disagree with that?
Or can we agree on this scientific
fact?
Quote:Science as faith, tired argument, go pat a YEC on the back.
Hey again I speak TRUTH!
It's not really "Science as faith" (let's not get confused here)
I said that "Scientists" have faith that science is actually wrong!
Quantum theory
predicts that there exists an impenetrable wall at the quantum level beyond which we can never extract further information.
This wall is
guaranteed to exist via the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. A precise mathematical relationship that states clearly that no information can be had beyond a certain degree of smallness defined by Planck's Constant.
Thus the only way to go beyond Quantum Theory is for Quantum Theory to
fail or to be mistaken or superseded in some way.
Therefore, scientist such as String Theorists, etc, are actually placing their
faith in the hopes and dreams that the most successful theory in all of science will ultimately fall.
Is that science? Or is that merely a hope that our current scientific understanding will actually turn out to be wrong?
I ask you?
Quote:Demonstrate that the universe has a "why" in the first place, then you'll waste fewer words in platitudes and storytelling.
I have no desire to get side-tracked into murky philosophical arguments.
The only thing I have to say about that is to repeat the Words of Stephen Hawking once again:
"Even if there would be only one possible unified theory, it is just a set of rules and equations. What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?" - Stephen Hawking
The essence of what Stephen is concerned with here is what also concerns me.
I understand both science and mathematics entirely. And thus I also understand their limitations just like Hawking apparently does.
Math and science merely quantify what we observe. That's all the scientific method does. But it truly can't even say anything at all about the
true nature of what is actually being observed and quantified.
That's my whole point. I'm making the very same point that Stephen Hawking is concerned with.
Quantitative descriptions aren't all they are cracked up to be by secular atheists. They
don't rule out things such as magic, spirituality, etc.
That is a false conclusion that is being erroneous spread by secular atheists who try to use science to support their skepticism of things that science cannot explain.
Science simple doesn't have that capability.
Moreover, as I have already pointed out, the
most successful scientific theory and knowledge that we current have actually predicts that we are at a dead end in ever having any hope of fully grasping the true nature of the physical world at the quantum level.
Yet scientists ignore this
fact and continue to have
faith that the current knowledge of science is actually
wrong.
How ironic is that?
(February 2, 2012 at 2:02 pm)Chuck Wrote: What do you expect from an idiot who goes by "abracadabra"?
So you judge people based on their screen name?
How interesting.
Let me tell you a truly funny story of how I started using Abracadabra as a screen name.
One day I was trying to log onto a forum. I was typing in all sorts of cool names. Unfortunately they were all so cool that they had already been used.
I was becoming frustrated. I thought to myself, "Boy I wish I could just say a magic word and get logged onto the site." So I typed in "Abracadabra".
And by golly it WORKED!
That's how my screen name came to be.
It's magic I tell ya.
