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**The Reality Salesman01** · February 21, 2015 at 9:49 pm

Well, duh!

ether-ore · February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm

(February 21, 2015 at 6:19 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote:
(February 21, 2015 at 5:29 pm)ether-ore Wrote: So it is God's judgment call as to what happens to us when we die. It will be well for those who use their agency to repent. For others; not so much.

I will consider this claim from you if you can do one little thing. My Muslim buddy tells me the same thing. He also tells me it's not enough to just repent, he says that I have to repent and submit to his God, Allah. He says that if I invest my afterlife into the wrong God's basket, then I will be screwed for sure. Unfortunately, if he's right, you and I are both screwed. The one little thing I need from you is to prove that Allah is the wrong God to invest my faith into. You seem pretty certain about the authenticity of your God, so, the characteristics of a fraudulent God must be easy for you point out. I don't think this is an unfair request here.

You get what I'm asking right? If I've got three different propositions for gods coming at me, and each of the three are incompatible with the other, that is to say, if one is right the other two cannot be right. To complicate things, each of the three offers have only one instruction on how to know their God is the right one: to just have faith. Obviously, that's not going to work with all three. Now here's where it gets interesting...

All three people are absolutely sure they're right...

If I owed you $100, and I offered you three different $100 bills to choose from. Could you spot the fake? Probably, and you'd be really good at doing it if you'd devoted your life to studying the characteristics of American currency. Part of what it means to know what something is, is to know what it is not.

So, to someone who has surely devoted some percentage of their life to understanding the nature of their God, how were you able to eliminate Allah from the group? There are far more Muslims in the world who have all been convinced that their God is the authentic $100 bill, but you weren't fooled. So, what was it about the God of Islam that made you know that it was a fake?

The Book of Mormon actually is translated into Arabic and in it, God is called Allah; so it is not the name, it is the message, My claim is that the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are all one consistent and cohesive message from the time of Moses (who also wrote of things before his time) until now.
Having read the Koran, I personally do not see it as a continuation of the same theme as exists in the Bible even though Muslims claim to honor the prophets of the Bible... it is not the same story at all.

One major difference (at least in LDS theology) is the belief that we are free agents; able to choose our path; and it is this for which we will be judged.

As I understand it, whenever a Muslin attempts anything, it is always "Insha'Allah"... God willing, suggesting that God has already pre-determined everything. To me, this does not square with observation. People in the world make choices all of the time that are actually in spite of God's will. And then there is the method of spreading the message... Jihad. (As LDS, I accept no responsibility for the Crusades (if that were something you were about to bring up.)) Jihad is ongoing, as are honor killings. Consider... would you want to live under Sharia law? Sharia law is the message now and in heaven. I was having a discussion in another area concerning the nature of law whether laws on earth were all subjective (and they are) and whether God's law, being as eternal as He is and which He Himself abides is objective (which it is) God's eternal law is designed that if followed, will yield the greatest happiness. God's law applies equally to all His children and the only thing we need to be concerned about is obedience. Observation would indicate that Sharia law is not equitable, neither does it demonstrate charity (which is a required characteristic for someone who desires to become one with God for the sake of salvation). Salvation requires oneness with God and oneness requires the characteristic of charity. It seems to me that Sharia law is about compulsion, not charity. I hear about merciful Allah, but I don't see it in the practice of Islam. They are much too violent.

The core message of Christianity is that Jesus Christ suffered, died, was buried and rose again on the third day thus paying the penalty demanded by justice for a broken law (which we broke) on condition of repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, the laying on of hands by someone in authority for the gift of the Holy Ghost (who gives inspiration and helps us endure in repentance until the end of our days). Past that, one should be prepared to go to the temple and be sealed to wife and family for time and all eternity. This sealing power... this priesthood is on the earth again today as it was in the days of Peter to whom God gave the power to seal on earth and in heaven. It now resides in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The gospel of Jesus Christ is once again restored to the earth with all the authority and ordinances required for salvation and eternal life.

In LDS theology and doctrine, eternal life is the message.

**The Reality Salesman01** · February 22, 2015 at 1:02 am

(February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm)ether-ore Wrote:

(February 21, 2015 at 6:19 pm)The Reality Salesman Wrote: I will consider this claim from you if you can do one little thing. My Muslim buddy tells me the same thing. He also tells me it's not enough to just repent, he says that I have to repent and submit to his God, Allah. He says that if I invest my afterlife into the wrong God's basket, then I will be screwed for sure. Unfortunately, if he's right, you and I are both screwed. The one little thing I need from you is to prove that Allah is the wrong God to invest my faith into. You seem pretty certain about the authenticity of your God, so, the characteristics of a fraudulent God must be easy for you point out. I don't think this is an unfair request here.

You get what I'm asking right? If I've got three different propositions for gods coming at me, and each of the three are incompatible with the other, that is to say, if one is right the other two cannot be right. To complicate things, each of the three offers have only one instruction on how to know their God is the right one: to just have faith. Obviously, that's not going to work with all three. Now here's where it gets interesting...

All three people are absolutely sure they're right...

If I owed you $100, and I offered you three different $100 bills to choose from. Could you spot the fake? Probably, and you'd be really good at doing it if you'd devoted your life to studying the characteristics of American currency. Part of what it means to know what something is, is to know what it is not.

So, to someone who has surely devoted some percentage of their life to understanding the nature of their God, how were you able to eliminate Allah from the group? There are far more Muslims in the world who have all been convinced that their God is the authentic $100 bill, but you weren't fooled. So, what was it about the God of Islam that made you know that it was a fake?

The Book of Mormon actually is translated into Arabic and in it, God is called Allah; so it is not the name, it is the message, My claim is that the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are all one consistent and cohesive message from the time of Moses (who also wrote of things before his time) until now.
Having read the Koran, I personally do not see it as a continuation of the same theme as exists in the Bible even though Muslims claim to honor the prophets of the Bible... it is not the same story at all.

One major difference (at least in LDS theology) is the belief that we are free agents; able to choose our path; and it is this for which we will be judged.

As I understand it, whenever a Muslin attempts anything, it is always "Insha'Allah"... God willing, suggesting that God has already pre-determined everything. To me, this does not square with observation. People in the world make choices all of the time that are actually in spite of God's will. And then there is the method of spreading the message... Jihad. (As LDS, I accept no responsibility for the Crusades (if that were something you were about to bring up.)) Jihad is ongoing, as are honor killings. Consider... would you want to live under Sharia law? Sharia law is the message now and in heaven. I was having a discussion in another area concerning the nature of law whether laws on earth were all subjective (and they are) and whether God's law, being as eternal as He is and which He Himself abides is objective (which it is) God's eternal law is designed that if followed, will yield the greatest happiness. God's law applies equally to all His children and the only thing we need to be concerned about is obedience. Observation would indicate that Sharia law is not equitable, neither does it demonstrate charity (which is a required characteristic for someone who desires to become one with God for the sake of salvation). Salvation requires oneness with God and oneness requires the characteristic of charity. It seems to me that Sharia law is about compulsion, not charity. I hear about merciful Allah, but I don't see it in the practice of Islam. They are much too violent.

The core message of Christianity is that Jesus Christ suffered, died, was buried and rose again on the third day thus paying the penalty demanded by justice for a broken law (which we broke) on condition of repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, the laying on of hands by someone in authority for the gift of the Holy Ghost (who gives inspiration and helps us endure in repentance until the end of our days). Past that, one should be prepared to go to the temple and be sealed to wife and family for time and all eternity. This sealing power... this priesthood is on the earth again today as it was in the days of Peter to whom God gave the power to seal on earth and in heaven. It now resides in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The gospel of Jesus Christ is once again restored to the earth with all the authority and ordinances required for salvation and eternal life.

In LDS theology and doctrine, eternal life is the message.

**Brakeman** · February 22, 2015 at 1:12 am

(February 21, 2015 at 5:29 pm)ether-ore Wrote:
(February 21, 2015 at 12:30 pm)Brakeman Wrote: Tell us the main gist of why you think that smith's public wild translation of the Egyptian funeral papyri is not a big fanciful lie.

Ok... There are two issues here. One is the Book of Abraham itself and The other is facsimile 1.

First let me state that what I'm about to say absolutely will not satisfy. The issue concerning the Book of Abraham requires faith which is something you guys will reject out of hand. Anyway, the Book of Abraham was translated in much the same way as the Book of Mormon. It was translated by the gift and power of God through the use of the Urim and Thummim. This instrument is mentioned in the Old Testament and was used by many prophets, including Abraham. The method used to accomplish the translation is relatively unimportant to members of the church. What is important is the substance of the message of the book and whether it is true. The papyri from which the Book of Abraham was taken is according to FAIR, "The Book of Abraham manuscript was attached to the Book of Breathings manuscript and was lost." There is no doubt but that the response to this will be "how convenient?" Nevertheless, there it is.

It's not convenient and it's not even true. the original funeral papyri was found and in a Chicago museum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Papyri

So your excuses are wrong. Your sources lied, knowingly lied.

**The Reality Salesman01** · February 22, 2015 at 1:30 am

Brakeman Wrote:

(February 21, 2015 at 5:29 pm)ether-ore Wrote: Ok... There are two issues here. One is the Book of Abraham itself and The other is facsimile 1.

First let me state that what I'm about to say absolutely will not satisfy. The issue concerning the Book of Abraham requires faith which is something you guys will reject out of hand. Anyway, the Book of Abraham was translated in much the same way as the Book of Mormon. It was translated by the gift and power of God through the use of the Urim and Thummim. This instrument is mentioned in the Old Testament and was used by many prophets, including Abraham. The method used to accomplish the translation is relatively unimportant to members of the church. What is important is the substance of the message of the book and whether it is true. The papyri from which the Book of Abraham was taken is according to FAIR, "The Book of Abraham manuscript was attached to the Book of Breathings manuscript and was lost." There is no doubt but that the response to this will be "how convenient?" Nevertheless, there it is.

It's not convenient and it's not even true. the original funeral papyri was found and in a Chicago museum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith_Papyri

So your excuses are wrong. Your sources lied, knowingly lied.

Knowingly? At first I thought that may be a bit presumptuous but then again, they do have a different understanding of what it means to "know" something. If someone told them it was true, then they "know" it, so....ok.

Thumpalumpacus · February 22, 2015 at 2:12 am

(February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm)ether-ore Wrote: One major difference (at least in LDS theology) is the belief that we are free agents; able to choose our path; and it is this for which we will be judged.

As I understand it, whenever a Muslin attempts anything, it is always "Insha'Allah"... God willing, suggesting that God has already pre-determined everything. To me, this does not square with observation. People in the world make choices all of the time that are actually in spite of God's will.

How are they able to master the will of an omnipotent being? Does he let them do it? Then he has a share of the blame. If I had let my son, at three, run across a busy boulevard only to watch him get hit, would you not hold me at least partially responsible? If I witnessed an incipient murder that I could have stopped, and I refused to do so, am I not at least partially to blame in the resulting death?

You must either abandon omnipotence, or abandon goodness, because you cannot have both. "Free will" means nothing when one's soul is held for ransom.

[

(February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm)ether-ore Wrote: I was having a discussion in another area concerning the nature of law whether laws on earth were all subjective (and they are) and whether God's law, being as eternal as He is and which He Himself abides is objective (which it is)

Your god is obviously a subjective phenomenon, as you cannot present evidence for his existence. It follows that what you claim as his "law" is also subjective, meaning that it is your creation -- or the creation of your religious masters -- imputed upon him.

First, you show your little god-thingy to be true. Then, you call him "objective". That is the requisite order of operations.

(February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm)ether-ore Wrote: God's eternal law is designed that if followed, will yield the greatest happiness.

Tell that to the gay people your church spent millions denying them the right to marry. By the way, you think that your god created them the way that they are, yet you would deny them the happiness that your god destined for them.

(February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm)ether-ore Wrote: God's law applies equally to all His children and the only thing we need to be concerned about is obedience.

No. The only trait that distinguishes humans from other animals, so far as we know, is the trait of moral judgement. To demand humans to not judge even your god is to demand that humans not be human.

(February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm)ether-ore Wrote: Observation would indicate that Sharia law is not equitable, neither does it demonstrate charity (which is a required characteristic for someone who desires to become one with God for the sake of salvation).

There's a bunch of Mormons gonna burn in Hell then, Charlie, because you guys spent a shitload of money getting Prop 8 passed and thereby denying equitable treatment to gay folk in California. And because you guys must tithe, that means you all are culpable in that injustice. You, personally, if you have given money to the LDS, you personally have acted to treat people inequitably.

(February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm)ether-ore Wrote: Salvation requires oneness with God and oneness requires the characteristic of charity. It seems to me that Sharia law is about compulsion, not charity. I hear about merciful Allah, but I don't see it in the practice of Islam. They are much too violent.

How many Muslims do you know personally? How many have you known in your life? I want exact figures.

(February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm)ether-ore Wrote: The core message of Christianity is that Jesus Christ suffered, died, was buried and rose again on the third day thus paying the penalty demanded by justice for a broken law (which we broke) on condition of repentance, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, the laying on of hands by someone in authority for the gift of the Holy Ghost (who gives inspiration and helps us endure in repentance until the end of our days).

No. The core message of Christianity is that humans are evil.

(February 21, 2015 at 9:51 pm)ether-ore Wrote: Past that, one should be prepared to go to the temple and be sealed to wife and family for time and all eternity. This sealing power... this priesthood is on the earth again today as it was in the days of Peter to whom God gave the power to seal on earth and in heaven. It now resides in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The gospel of Jesus Christ is once again restored to the earth with all the authority and ordinances required for salvation and eternal life.

In LDS theology and doctrine, eternal life is the message.

Like every other offshoot of Christianity, yours too is a death cult. Fuck off.

**robvalue** · February 22, 2015 at 2:43 am

I'm afraid I can't see the difference between this and "my story sounds better".

**The Reality Salesman01** · February 22, 2015 at 3:01 am

It keeps coming around to religion. I'm asking about the God that each party believes to be the reason to follow one or another. They aren't following their religion because the religion makes them feel good. They follow the religion because they believe with absolute certainty that a specific God has given them the specific instructions that their religion has taught. Within Christianity, you could get 50 different Gods all separated by the different details in their instructions that they perceive to be their will. What want them to answer is: Which person is acting in accordance with the right will of the one true God and how do they know the others are wrong?

**robvalue** · (This post was last modified: February 22, 2015 at 3:20 am by robvalue.)

Maybe all current religions are wrong, and the real God is tapping his feet waiting for you to notice him, if you'd only stop worshipping these figments of your imagination.

Wouldn't a "real" God be a little bit more obvious so that us atheists couldn't fail to notice it? Or is the scepticism of an atheist greater than god?

Thumpalumpacus · (This post was last modified: February 22, 2015 at 3:37 am by Thumpalumpacus.)

(February 22, 2015 at 2:43 am)robvalue Wrote: I'm afraid I can't see the difference between this and "my story sounds better".

Fucking Christ, I write an essay, and you kill it with one sentence ... bravo.

"Brevity is the soul of wit", indeed.

(February 22, 2015 at 3:20 am)robvalue Wrote: Wouldn't a "real" God be a little bit more obvious so that us atheists couldn't fail to notice it? Or is the scepticism of an atheist greater than god?

Clearly he doesn't want to save all humans from the damnation of Hell.

Ignore the fact that he's alleged to be perfectly merciful.

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