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Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 21, 2015 at 7:58 pm
Just had a good think about this idea thanks to another thread. And what confuses me is that a lot of theists will argue that "out of nothing, nothing comes" but then go on to say that God created stuff from this "nothing".
I guess what my issue with this is how is this logical if "nothing" (in the philosophical sense that most theists stick to) is not meant to have any sort material from which to form anything. Nothing supposedly means no stuff, no properties, no material, etc.
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 21, 2015 at 8:08 pm
(February 21, 2015 at 7:58 pm)Irrational Wrote: Just had a good think about this idea thanks to another thread. And what confuses me is that a lot of theists will argue that "out of nothing, nothing comes" but then go on to say that God created stuff from this "nothing".
I guess what my issue with this is how is this logical if "nothing" (in the philosophical sense that most theists stick to) is not meant to have any sort material from which to form anything. Nothing supposedly means no stuff, no properties, no material, etc.
Well articulated. I find the Ex Nihilo position of theists to be special pleading. If God has properties (including the will to create) then God is not nothing, and so God must have a source. If God has no properties, then God is nothing, and then theists must agree that nothing does indeed come from nothing, and their argument crumbles like a three day old scone under a jackhammer.
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‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 21, 2015 at 8:50 pm
It's almost like they are saying, "Stuff coming from nothing is impossible, so you need someone who can do things that are impossible."
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 21, 2015 at 8:54 pm
(February 21, 2015 at 8:50 pm)robvalue Wrote: It's almost like they are saying, "Stuff coming from nothing is impossible, so you need someone who can do things that are impossible."
That's basically the core of all christian apologetics: "God is the thing that does the thing that I've asserted is impossible for what you believe to account for."
They don't have any actual evidence, and so they're stuck with trying to streamline reality by fiat in such a way that you're channeled toward a god that has no evidence. It's just pretending reality is shaped in a way that has a conveniently god shaped hole in it.
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 21, 2015 at 8:59 pm
"Something from nothing" is also a good parallel to how they form their arguments based on the available evidence.
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 21, 2015 at 9:00 pm
(February 21, 2015 at 7:58 pm)Irrational Wrote: ... God created stuff from this "nothing". If there is a god, then there is not 'nothing'.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 21, 2015 at 9:01 pm
I'm getting a bit fed up of the "argument" that if no evidence exists or can possibly exist, it is rational to just pretend whatever you like happened.
But again, no sane christian would use this line or reasoning in any other subject than religion. At least I hope not.
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 21, 2015 at 9:07 pm
(February 21, 2015 at 9:00 pm)IATIA Wrote: (February 21, 2015 at 7:58 pm)Irrational Wrote: ... God created stuff from this "nothing". If there is a god, then there is not 'nothing'.
That's also another problem with this concept, yes. Somehow, God just happens to co-exist with nothingness in a "parallel" sense.
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 21, 2015 at 9:10 pm
'Nothing' is just that. Any description given to nothing, makes it something. No rational entity believes this universe came from 'nothing'. We are here, so there can never have been 'nothing'.
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson
God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers
Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders
Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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RE: Creatio Ex Nihilo - Forming Something out of Nothing?
February 21, 2015 at 9:40 pm
Actually, the bible says the world was created by "Word" (Jesus is the Word of God), therefore creation is not made from nothing
(though we tend to see it this way) but from God.
Our own apologists ought to state this.
AE Wilder-Smith did, to his credit.
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