(western) classical music discussion

[Alex K]

Very cool, so far I only knew his play bachs

[Minimalist]

Franz Von Suppe - Light Cavalry Overture







Jacques Offenbach - Gaite Parisienne







Tchaikovski - Waltz of the Flowers

[Alex K]

Ok so I went to a performance of the SMP yesterday, very nice soloists and period instruments.

It kills the suspense a bit that Jesus gives the whole ending away in the first sentence he utters in minute 7, but hey, I knew the story anyways. If J had known what massive music he inspires, he sure wouldn't have gone thrice to getsemane to negotiate with himself/daddy/fate.

[Rev. Rye]

I listened to St. Matthew's Passion yesterday as well. I didn't go to a live performance, however.

I just listened to my old standby: Otto Klemperer's version. It has Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau as Jesus, and even has Peter Pears as the Evangelist (and since the Evangelist speaks only in recitative, he minimizes the damage he causes.)

Needless to say, since it's Klemperer, the pacing can get slow, and since it was done in the 1960s, he doesn't care much for historically informed performance.









Of course, I find it disappointing that Picander included the verse about the Jerusalem zombie apocalypse, but failed to elaborate on it.

[Alex K]

Yup. As I said before, how about a choir singing "Braaains, Braaahahahahaaaa hahahahaaaains

[Pyrrho]

Ok so I went to a performance of the SMP yesterday, very nice soloists and period instruments.

It kills the suspense a bit that Jesus gives the whole ending away in the first sentence he utters in minute 7, but hey, I knew the story anyways. ...

I find it best if one is unable to understand the words in such music.  I remember the first (and only) time I read a translation of the words to Mozart's Requiem while listening to it.  Understanding the drivel that was sung greatly detracted from the experience.  So I have never bothered with it since with that piece.  As I recall, it was a lot of something like "oh God, please don't let us burn in hell!" and other such silly things, though it was many years ago that I made the mistake of reading a translation while hearing it, so perhaps I am misremembering it.

The power is in the music, not the words.

This also reminds me of silly stories in some operas.  Sometimes, the story detracts from the overall impact, but the opera is still great if the music is great.  It is better if the story is good (which can be silly in a comedy and still be good), but it is not essential.  The essential part is the music.  The music must be great for an opera to be great.

And so it is with religious music.  To be great, the music must be great.  The words are almost irrelevant.

[Alex K]

It definitely is the music first, but the music often exploits dramatic aspects of the libretto, for example in SMP when the people announce whom they want pontius pilate to free, or right after JC is apprehended, there's this lamenting duet of soprano and alto with unexpected dramatic interjections by the choir pleading to let him go. This is very much fuelled by the drama in the text.

The words of the SMP are much better than catholic mass(I can't help it and understand them, obviously), because they mostly deal with actual action -- people scheming to get JC killed, JC complaining about his disciples' lack of commitment, JC getting ridiculed, or very abstract and poetic reflections that one can, with some goodwill, interpret non-dogmatically. In between there's some guilt tripping (Literally, it says Behold! What? Our guilt! in the splendid opening chorus. But when it comes with that kind of insane counterpoint, I can even forgive a guilt trip).
The final words are delivered very effectively - God, why hast thou forsaken me. Followed by earthquakes and zombies, a factual account of the burial by joseph and some laments. Nothing I find too objectionable
Picander and Bach really made the best of the weird material.

[Pyrrho]

You are, of course, right that the music often exploits dramatic aspects of the libretto in classical music.  And, of course, Bach's St. Matthew's Passion has better words than Mozart's Requiem, though they serve different functions, so it isn't really a fair comparison.

You have gotten me to think about the words a bit more.  I think with most classical music, it is actually better to not understand the words, particularly the religious music.

With Handel's Messiah, which is much loved in English speaking countries, probably because it is in English, I find understanding it to be detrimental.  And I would think that, even if I were religious.  Especially if I were religious.  There is a very awkwardly grouped phrase that occurs in it.  One hears "we like sheep," followed by "we like sheep."  At that point, it causes me to think of bestiality or just an odd affection for sheep, that seems entirely out of place.  Of course, it then continues, "have gone astray."  With proper punctuation, it is, "we, like sheep, have gone astray," but that is not how it sounds, with the repeat of "we, like sheep," where the comma is not very emphasized.

Fortunately for me, I have never been much of a fan of the piece anyway, but it almost makes me laugh when they get to the "we like sheep, we like sheep" bit.  It takes me out of the mood of the piece, and makes it less effective.

If I did not understand what they were singing, it would be better.  I still would not like it that much, but it would be better if I did not understand what the words meant when they are singing.

[Minimalist]

One hears "we like sheep," followed by "we like sheep."

Apparently an eternal problem among shepherds.  You to admit, it flows better than "we like camels."

[Alex K]

I've read somewhere that the matching of words to the music is sometimes a bit awkward in Messiah for some reason having to do with the source material, I don't remember exactly what it was right now.

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Upthread I've already wondered about the lyrics of one of the parts of Bach's beautiful cantata "Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme", which has the guy tell his lady "I come! I come!" for minutes on end. I find that distracting as well.