Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: Entropy, Kalam, and First Cause
March 18, 2015 at 2:59 pm
The problem remains that even if you grant the conclusion, there is no way to know what that "cause" is. So it doesn't explain anything.
Adding Morgan Freeman standing just outside the Big Bang doesn't explain it either, and then brings in the whole problem of "why is MF there, where did he come from, what caused him?" It's a mental pacifier which falls apart if it looked at too closely.
Posts: 7045
Threads: 20
Joined: June 17, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: Entropy, Kalam, and First Cause
March 18, 2015 at 3:01 pm
Right. Our current understanding of entropy, space, and all of physics for that matter, is entirely restricted to the universe post t=0, as that is the time period in which we live. We can't make any assertions about what happened prior to t=0, as we have no reason to think our understanding of time and space and causality have any relevance there. We can't look at the universe 'from the outside' or 'before it started' because that doesn't make any sense, and we have no way of measuring 'outside the universe' or 'before it started'.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 7175
Threads: 12
Joined: March 14, 2013
Reputation:
72
RE: Entropy, Kalam, and First Cause
March 18, 2015 at 3:11 pm
(March 18, 2015 at 2:25 pm)GriffinHunter Wrote: That force may or may not be personal, and perhaps it isn't even a mind. But I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of there being absolutely no First Cause at all... I think that's natural. Our lives and the events within are measured by beginnings and endings. We have a problem grasping even very large or very small values, to say nothing of the concept of infinity. We also have a tough time grasping the concept of something appearing out of nothing, which is one of the issues that believers and non-believers grapple with. After all, no matter which first cause we posit, we are left to wonder what caused that cause? Saying that god was always there is just an attempt to side-step the issue, IMO. And it certainly doesn't make the concept of eternity any more comprehensible.
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
Posts: 1114
Threads: 28
Joined: June 13, 2011
Reputation:
18
RE: Entropy, Kalam, and First Cause
March 18, 2015 at 3:12 pm
(This post was last modified: March 18, 2015 at 3:12 pm by Pizza.)
Another problem is Craig hasn't effectively defended the first premise of Kalam. He says things like a tiger couldn’t pop into the universe uncaused. What analogy does a tiger bear to a universe? The universe doesn't exist within itself.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot
We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
Posts: 2009
Threads: 2
Joined: October 8, 2012
Reputation:
26
RE: Entropy, Kalam, and First Cause
March 18, 2015 at 3:32 pm
(March 18, 2015 at 3:11 pm)Tonus Wrote: (March 18, 2015 at 2:25 pm)GriffinHunter Wrote: That force may or may not be personal, and perhaps it isn't even a mind. But I just can't wrap my mind around the idea of there being absolutely no First Cause at all... I think that's natural. Our lives and the events within are measured by beginnings and endings. We have a problem grasping even very large or very small values, to say nothing of the concept of infinity. Some people have a hard time just grasping that time is relative.
On our human scale, both physically and in life span, time travels in a straight line at a consistent rate. And that's good enough for us to use it and get by.
But zoom out to galactic scale and time gets very wonky. It's hard to grasp, but it's what happens. The idea of no ultimate beginning may also be hard to grasp, but that may very well be reality. Whether we can grasp it or not isn't nearly as important as whether or not it's reality.
Posts: 18510
Threads: 129
Joined: January 19, 2014
Reputation:
90
RE: Entropy, Kalam, and First Cause
March 18, 2015 at 3:50 pm
(March 18, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I would just like to add that there is a logical problem with assuming that the laws of the universe apply to the universe itself. Our universe can be described as the 'set of all things within our space/time continuum, including space and time'. A wall made of indestructible bricks isn't necessarily an indestructible wall. A universe that is a closed system where entropy holds may not itself be entirely subject to entropy. For instance, a bang/crunch cycle could apply that 'resets' the entropy to a lower level. I don't particularly think that is the case, but it isn't disproven by an appeal to thermodynamics.
Exacteley
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
Posts: 7045
Threads: 20
Joined: June 17, 2014
Reputation:
55
RE: Entropy, Kalam, and First Cause
March 18, 2015 at 3:52 pm
(March 18, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: For instance, a bang/crunch cycle could apply that 'resets' the entropy to a lower level.
Incidentally, "Bang/Crunch Cycle" is the name of my new speed metal/electronica band.
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 18510
Threads: 129
Joined: January 19, 2014
Reputation:
90
RE: Entropy, Kalam, and First Cause
March 18, 2015 at 4:05 pm
(March 18, 2015 at 3:52 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote: (March 18, 2015 at 2:54 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: For instance, a bang/crunch cycle could apply that 'resets' the entropy to a lower level.
Incidentally, "Bang/Crunch Cycle" is the name of my new speed metal/electronica band.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2TOdUfX0mo
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
Posts: 3620
Threads: 22
Joined: January 19, 2015
Reputation:
30
RE: Entropy, Kalam, and First Cause
March 18, 2015 at 4:06 pm
(March 18, 2015 at 3:50 pm)Alex K Wrote: Exacteley
I... what even is this? Please tell me it's some kind of a physicist inside joke or a pun. Please.
Posts: 18510
Threads: 129
Joined: January 19, 2014
Reputation:
90
RE: Entropy, Kalam, and First Cause
March 18, 2015 at 4:10 pm
(This post was last modified: March 18, 2015 at 4:11 pm by Alex K.)
(March 18, 2015 at 4:06 pm)Norman Humann Wrote: (March 18, 2015 at 3:50 pm)Alex K Wrote: Exacteley
I... what even is this? Please tell me it's some kind of a physicist inside joke or a pun. Please.
I wish I could tell you that it was a witty pun involving certain aspects of the moduli potential in the supergravity limit of type IIB string compactifications and how they are stabilized by D - anti D brane configurations in a Klebanov-Strassler throat. Unfortunately, it is nothing of the sort, and just me speaking emphatically put in writing.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
|
