Pascal's Wager Revisited

[datc]

The argument makes no reference to any particular religion or to the idea of "religion" at all. Insofar as it talks about God, it builds up a slice of him, that is, unlocks some of his attributes (creative, etc.), in the process of showing the reasonableness of this God's existence.

I am explicitly not conceiving of the next life as an external reward for this one but as a natural outcome of one's search for virtue and happiness in this one. If I am hungry and make a sandwich for myself, is the sandwich a "reward" or a consequence and consummation of previous work?

The intuition is that human improvement is such a fundamental feature of our lives that we are led to the idea that it continues forever. But we can't conquer death on our own; so, perhaps there is something that helps us, in a (purposively?) hidden way.

This is not one of the more worked out arguments I have for God. It's an idea to ponder in one's more contemplative moments.

[Pyrrho]

I'll say it once more so that theists can ignore it once more.

Belief is not a choice.

Pretending to believe is not impressive. Especially, you'd think, to a god.

And sure, I can revisit the wager to kick it in the crotch one more time.

It isn't a pure choice, but one can choose to stick one's fingers in one's ears and loudly say "LaLaLaLa..." to avoid listening, whenever someone starts to challenge one's beliefs.  

One can choose to dwell on matters, or to try to push things from one's mind and think about something else, perhaps using drugs or loud music or sex to get one to stop thinking about something.

One can choose to research something, to get more information, or one can choose to avoid doing such things.

So there is some element of choice to what one believes.  But yes, you are right, one does not merely choose beliefs, the way one might choose which shirt to put on in the morning.  I could no sooner choose to believe in a god than I could choose to believe that I am the Queen of England.

[TheRealJoeFish]

The intuition is that human improvement is such a fundamental feature of our lives that we are led to the idea that it continues forever. But we can't conquer death on our own; so, perhaps there is something that helps us, in a (purposively?) hidden way.

Or - and you'd better sit down for this one, because it's gonna hurt... - maybe... the intuition... is WRONG.

(Also, that's not the obvious intuition.  The intuition, as evidenced by every little kid everywhere, is that their dead mother/father/sibling is "sleeping and will never wake up."  Religion sort of takes that sleeping intuition and says "yeah, but the dreams are real and awesome and they last forever.")

[Exian]

Evidence would help me contemplate the issue in a more serious manner. Contemplating just for the exercise can be fun, but nothing to hang your hat on.

[robvalue]

Sure, you can think about things, examine new evidence, look again at old evidence. You can discuss, and internally mull things over.

What you can't do is make a conscious choice to believe something just because you find the idea appealing. If I really could do that, if I could convince myself I could fly because it sounds appealing, I am a danger to myself and others. It would be an indication of some sort of severe mental problem.

I think the fact that many theists cannot seem to appreciate this point makes me suspect that they are telling us what they would like to believe, rather than what they actually believe. I see theists acting just like atheists almost all the time. Their actions betray their professed beliefs.

[Faith No More]

Any God worth believing in would send me to hell for taking such a dishonest approach to evidence like Pascal's Wager.

This is the kind of tripe that is only convincing to people that already believe, and the fact that theists advocate these arguments just makes me all the more sure that God is nothing but a figment of their imagination.

[Ravenshire]

Which god are we applying the wager to. Shouldn't it be all of them?!? After all, you could be picking the wrong one!

Just in case, I'm going to convert to every religion I can find any information on. All 40,000+ versions of christeranity, judiasm, islam, mithraism. etc...



Fuck Pascal and his wager. It's a fool's bet.

[robvalue]

Also, consider the possibility that God is testing our critical thinking. He leaves insufficient evidence on purpose. So in fact I would win by staying an atheist. It's just as likely as any other of the infinity of possibilities. And since I already am an atheist, I'll keep my chips right where they are rather than pretend to be a theist.

[Iroscato]

Also, consider the possibility that God is testing our critical thinking. He leaves insufficient evidence on purpose. So in fact I would win by staying an atheist. It's just as likely as any other of the infinity of possibilities. And since I already am an atheist, I'll keep my chips right where they are rather than pretend to be a theist.

Makes sense. He'll be needing clever, critically-thinking soldiers for his big apocalyptic throwdown with Lucifer after all.
Critically-minded, free-thinking individuals who don't necessarily believe what they're told and are prone to questioning orders and -
Wait. Fuck me, even when I'm being daft for the hell of it it still makes so sense at all.

[abaris]

The intuition is that human improvement is such a fundamental feature of our lives that we are led to the idea that it continues forever. But we can't conquer death on our own; so, perhaps there is something that helps us, in a (purposively?) hidden way.

This is not one of the more worked out arguments I have for God. It's an idea to ponder in one's more contemplative moments.

You know what really pisses me off about these theist arguments? This, oh human magnificent, human great, human crown of creation standard. It's time to climb from the homocentric high horse and look at the world surrounding us with open eyes.

Do you have any clue about the results of animal cognition experiments? I guess not, otherwise you would notice that we're only a part of a constantly evolving world. And just as our bodies carry the remnants of our animal ancestry, parts that are no longer of use for the species we have become, our most basic instincts carried over too.

That's what we are. Part of a chain and personally I find that thought much more inspiring than any god poofing us into existence.