Morality and downloading

[IATIA]

... should Youtube unplug the audio because Metallica's lawyers' lawyers' minions are pissed that I didn't arrange a license?

Yes, or else where does the line get drawn? Others arrange for licensing rights, what makes you different?

[bennyboy]

... should Youtube unplug the audio because Metallica's lawyers' lawyers' minions are pissed that I didn't arrange a license?

Yes, or else where does the line get drawn?  Others arrange for licensing rights, what makes you different?

Hmmm.  Moral high-horse or corporate whore?  You've chosen Metallica's $0.10 over my right to share moments of my life with others.  Can I ask you what your profession is?

But to answer your question: I'm king of my own existence.  I don't need to be influenced by superstitious Christian ideas of absolute morality, and at any given moment, I can decide what effect my actions will have, and whether I accept those consequences.  I see moral guilt about things that don't really matter as the residue of old wives' tales, stone tablets and weak minds.

The only line I need to draw is my circle of domain: what part of my life do I claim under my own authority, and what part of my life do I subject to social mores about which I'm emotionally indifferent?  And that I draw that line large so as to increase my enjoyment of life, rather than letting cackling hens like you tighten it around me like a coccoon, is what makes me different.

A message for you:

[IATIA]

Well, it is not thief.

[bennyboy]

Well, it is not thief.

You are a thief of my grandmother's superstitious Christian ideals.  I demand that you send her $0.10.

[Ravenshire]

Whether you consider torrenting content to be moral or not, here's something you should keep in mind. You can be held accountable to the tune of $150,000 per work. Granted, they normally only come after about $750-$1000/work but how many songs on a CD? 10? 12? 15? Let's say 10. That $7,500-$10,000 per disc. Let's say you only downloaded 10 CDs. That's $75,000-$100,000 for 10 discs.. How much would those 10 discs cost new? $120-$150? Used? $50-$75. Don't believe they'll do it? Trust me, they will. Long after I gave up torrenting hard to find public domain works, I received a summons. It seems that someone got a bot planted on my machine that was using a torrent client to mass download porn to my machine and back channel transfer it elsewhere. I got sued by just one of the copyright holders to the tune of $75,000. They were willing to settle... For $50,000. Don't kid yourself that they only go after the uploaders or the big sharing sites. They go after individuals every day. If your IP is out there, it's being tracked. If you're torrenting, someone already knows. There are companies making millions annually just keeping tabs on torrenters. File share hiding tools are worthless. These guys know the tricks and have all the same block lists you do. When their IP shows up on on, they get a new IP.

I won't claim "pure as the wind driven snow" innocence with torrenting, but I did not download the crap I was accused of. Of course, in civil court there is no presumption of innocence. You have to prove your innocence or be treated as a criminal. I finally got a dismissal with prejudice and consider myself lucky despite my defense costing over five grand.

I agree with a lot of the arguments for torrenting, especially when you have already purchased the legal right to the content and have lost the ability to use it through no fault of your own. But, is it really worth it?

And, Benny, you seem to have stopped whatever research you were doing and are now making claims, arguments and accusations so I don't feel one bit bad about hijacking your thread.

[Mudhammam]

I look at it like this: there are degrees to which stealing is morally wrong. It is not equally wrong to steal a hat from Walmart (the only time in my life I have walked out of a store with an item intending not to pay for it) as it is to steal a hat from a mom and pop shop. Both are wrong but to the degree that an individual (such as the one being stolen from) is made to suffer, the magnitude of the deviancy is increased or diminished. My general attitude was and still is, fuck Walmart, but stealing in the abstract is still wrong.
I think the same general principles apply to intellectual property. However, in the case of downloading media, I see the situation as slightly different. When I download something from a torrent, I am not stealing it. It has already been stolen. I'm like the guy who looks at the stolen hat, says, "That's nice. Can I wear it for a moment and see if I like it?" and then gives it back (deletes the downloaded file), or holds on to it because the hat thief pulls out ten more.

[IATIA]

Et tu, Brute?

I guess making my own money must be alright. It is my paper and my printer. I have not even 'stolen' anything, after all, it is "only a copy".

[One Above All]

Et tu, Brute?

I guess making my own money must be alright. It is my paper and my printer. I have not even 'stolen' anything, after all, it is "only a copy".

Wow. You're really getting desperate, aren't you?
In piracy, you don't sell the copy you've made. It doesn't go into circulation as a way to exchange goods. It doesn't devalue the original, no matter how much you try to claim it does.

I had a debate (if it can so be called) about piracy with a friend of mine. He couldn't answer one simple question, but perhaps (lolno) you can:
What are software developers losing when people who cannot afford their software download it illegally instead?

I want to note a few things:
I do not deny that, in the eyes of the law, piracy is theft. I do deny that it is, in fact, theft as it's commonly understood. I do deny that piracy is immoral.

[bennyboy]

Whether you consider torrenting content to be moral or not, here's something you should keep in mind. You can be held accountable to the tune of $150,000 per work. Granted, they normally only come after about $750-$1000/work but how many songs on a CD? 10? 12? 15? Let's say 10. That $7,500-$10,000 per disc. Let's say you only downloaded 10 CDs. That's $75,000-$100,000 for 10 discs.. How much would those 10 discs cost new? $120-$150? Used? $50-$75. Don't believe they'll do it? Trust me, they will. Long after I gave up torrenting hard to find public domain works, I received a summons. It seems that someone got a bot planted on my machine that was using a torrent client to mass download porn to my machine and back channel transfer it elsewhere. I got sued by just one of the copyright holders to the tune of $75,000. They were willing to settle... For $50,000. Don't kid yourself that they only go after the uploaders or the big sharing sites. They go after individuals every day. If your IP is out there, it's being tracked. If you're torrenting, someone already knows. There are companies making millions annually just keeping tabs on torrenters. File share hiding tools are worthless. These guys know the tricks and have all the same block lists you do. When their IP shows up on on, they get a new IP.

I won't claim "pure as the wind driven snow" innocence with torrenting, but I did not download the crap I was accused of. Of course, in civil court there is no presumption of innocence. You have to prove your innocence or be treated as a criminal. I finally got a dismissal with prejudice and consider myself lucky despite my defense costing over five grand.

I agree with a lot of the arguments for torrenting, especially when you have already purchased the legal right to the content and have lost the ability to use it through no fault of your own. But, is it really worth it?

And, Benny, you seem to have stopped whatever research you were doing and are now making claims, arguments and accusations so I don't feel one bit bad about hijacking your thread.

I don't feel you're hijacking the thread.  You've made a very relevant argument-- there are real consequences for the amoral/immoral behavior we are talking about.  And I don't think I've "stopped my research."  I think morality is a largely emotional affair, and we all have residual emotions about various acts.  So what I want is to get down to philosophical ideas, rather than expressions of emotion.

As for my own (hypocritical?) expression of emotion-- it follows philosophical ideas of Nietzsche and Machiavelli, among others.  And keep in mind that my "king of my own world" speech is mirrored by the kind of companies you're talking about.  Surely, they know that fining someone $50,000 because their daughter was sharing the collected works of Justin Bieber is counterproductive to the society-- but they can get away with it, can recoup some of their losses, and might even profit from it.

And I think many other people talking about big business have been kind of hinting at that-- should we accept an unlevel moral playing field and let corporations decide for themselves what is right or wrong, and let them also act as judge and jury in determining what fines we should pay?  Does the government keep its implied duties fulfilled in good faith?  Do music agencies?  iTunes?  Collection agencies?  Where's the equality in the social contract?  In a world where every agency, government, business or otherwise is out to maximize profit no matter what, why should normal people be held so deeply accountable for their own conduct?  Is this not a deeply sick and hypocritical moral system?

In short, in a dog-eat-dog world, why should I let the bigger dogs muzzle me? Why on Earth would I give a shit if they growl at me, saying "Bad dog!"

[vorlon13]

In regards to music:

a certain percentage of my movie theater ticket price was remitted to the performers who did the soundtrack

years later:

I bought the VHS tape of the movie, and again, another percentage of the price was remitted to the performers of the sound track.

and then:

being an up to date hip dude, I upgraded and bought a laser disc player, and a copy of that favorite movie again, and again, a portion of the price was remitted to the artists.

not much later;

laser disc was a dead end, so I bought a DVD player, and, what the heck, bought another copy of that movie, and yada, yada, yada.

Now, I have satellite, and lo and behold, Pay Per View has my movie, in HD this time !! So, here we go again, I'm paying for rights to hear those songs again

after the PPV:

damn, I gotta get that on Blu-Ray !!! And once more, the performers get their cut.


Guess what!!


That movie is on HBO this month !!! I get to watch it again, and once again, part of my monthly HBO bill goes to those artists again.


Somewhere along the way, I bought the CD soundtrack of the movie, to play in my in-dash CD player in my Honda. Left the disc in the car when I traded it off (oops!) and had to buy another CD for the Malibu . . .




See where I'm going with this? Maybe the system, despite it's warts and confusion, is fair after all ??