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(May 13, 2015 at 8:03 pm)Randy Carson Wrote: Jesus and the Apostles all spoke Greek. It was the lingua franca of the Roman empire. Necessary for trade and all that. In fact, the Jews of the diaspora (those not living in Palestine) read the Greek Septuagint scriptures instead of the Hebrew scriptures.
There was no Greek Septuagint scriptures at the time of Jesus. What you call the Septuagint is just the fifth column of the Hexapla written in the 3rd century AD. As for being Scripture, even Jerome when he wrote the Vulgate made special mention of the fact that "the LXX" version of Daniel was so poorly translated that it had been rejected. So much for being a piece of sola scripture. Now there's not a single complete copy of this amazing "Greek Septuagint scripture" anywhere in the world - not one. The book of Daniel survives in just two manuscripts only one of which is actually complete. Daniel wasn't even the worst translation of "the LXX" - that was Isaiah. And the one complete copy of "the LXX" version of Daniel that has survived (MS 88) was written in the 9th century and says itself that it is a copy of the FIFTH COLUMN OF THE HEXAPLA. So good luck figuring out what you had before Origen got his hands on it and modified it.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
Quote:The height of Goliath. ’’He’s barely tall enough to make the all-star game,‘’ remarks Frank Cross, a Harvard University expert on the official team working on the scrolls.p. That is, in 1 Samuel 17:4 most English translations say Goliath stood ’’six cubits and a span,‘’ meaning a towering nine feet plus (about 3 meters). But a damaged Dead Sea scroll can be read as saying ’’four cubits and a span,‘’ a mere six and a half feet (2 meters).
May 13, 2015 at 10:59 pm (This post was last modified: May 13, 2015 at 11:00 pm by Randy Carson.)
(May 13, 2015 at 8:11 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Jesus and the Apostles all spoke Greek.
Evidence that jesus and his fucking apostles were anything more than a figment of someone's imagination?
Didn't think so.
Think again.
The Historical Jesus – Jewish, Roman and Pagan References
Thallus (AD 52) In his work of history, Julius Africanus mentions two earlier historians, Phlegon and Thallus, who in turn made references to Jesus. Thallus: ·Acknowledges that Jesus was a real person ·Confirms that Jesus was crucified ·Mentions an earthquake and darkness (possibly an eclipse) – both were said to have occurred at the time of Jesus’ death in the gospels. Mara bar Serapion (ca. AD 73) “What advantage did the Athenians gain by murdering Socrates, for which they were repaid with famine and pestilence? Or the people of Samos by the burning of Pythagoras, because their country was completely covered in sand in just one hour? Or the Jews [by killing] their wise king, because their kingdom was taken away at that very time? God justly repaid the wisdom of these three men: the Athenians died of famine; the Samians were completely overwhelmed by the sea; and the Jews, desolate and driven from their own kingdom, are scattered through every nation. Socrates is not dead, because of Plato; neither is Pythagoras, because of the statue of Juno; nor is the wise king, because of the new laws he laid down.” (Letter in Syriac to his son; Van Voorst, page 54) ·while Jesus is not named, and 'wise king' is not a common Christological title, Jesus is doubtless meant by 'their wise king'; ·Mara a Jew writing to his son, speaks of this 'wise' Jew as a king, and 'king [of the Jews]' is prominently connected to Jesus at his trial (e.g. Mark 15:26); ·the link between the destruction of the Jewish nation and the death of the 'wise king' is parallel in Christianity to the destruction of Jerusalem as a punishment for Jewish rejection of Jesus (cf. Matt 23:37-39; 24:2; 27:25; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 19:42-44; 21:5-24; 23:28-31); ·the mention of 'the new laws he laid down' is probably a reference to the Christian religion, especially its moral code; ·Mara probably doesn't mention Jesus directly because it was the Romans who desolated and dispersed the Jews -- he does not want to offend his captors, the people who hold his loved ones. Josephus (c. 93-94 AD) “At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.” (Antiquities XVIII, 63 from Josephus: The Essential Writings by Paul L. Maier, page 264-265; this text is from An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications by S. Pines [Jerusalem, 1971]; another translation of above found in Van Voorst, page 97; for a different version of the text infamously interpolated by later Christian editors, see discussion in Van Voorst, page 85ff; also full discussion in A Marginal Jew, volume 1 by John P. Meier, pages 56ff) ·this text, which definitely mentions Jesus and his crucifixion under Pilate by a well-known Jewish historian of the first century, is hotly disputed because of possible later 'Christian interpolation' but the above is the Arabic text found without these 'Christian' additions; ·this version leaves the question of Jesus' messianic status neutral ("perhaps the Messiah"); ·this is another piece corroborating a 'neutral reconstruction' of the Testimonium (which is the preferred view among scholars); ·the neutral reconstruction, which isolates and removes the later pro-Christian interpolations, makes good sense of the pattern of ancient Christian witnesses to Josephus (e.g. Van Voorst, page 95-97). “Upon Festus' death, Caesar sent Albinus to Judea as procurator. But before he arrived, King Agrippa had appointed Ananus to the priesthood, who was the son of the elder Ananus [or Annas of the Gospels]. This elder Ananus, after he himself had been high priest, had five sons, all of whom achieved that office, which was unparalleled. The younger Ananus, however, was rash and followed the Sadducees, who are heartless when they sit in judgment. Ananus thought that with Festus dead and Albinus still on the way, he would have his opportunity. Convening the judges of the Sanhedrin, he brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law, and condemned them to be stoned to death.” (Antiquities XX, 197; from Josephus, Maier, page 275-276; another translation in Van Voorst, page 83) ·we have a passing but clear reference to Jesus here, and to Jesus' brother named James (cf. Gal 1:19); ·the overwhelming majority of scholars holds that the words 'the brother of Jesus called Christ' are authentic, as is the entire passage in which it is found; ·the passage fits in well with its own context; ·a Christian 'interpolator' would have used laudatory language to describe James and especially Jesus, calling him 'the Lord' or similar language. Pliny the Younger (c. 112 AD) “An anonymous accusatory pamphlet has been circulated containing the named of many people. I decided to dismiss any who denied that they are or ever have been Christians when they repeated after me a formula invoking the gods and made offerings of wine and incense to your image [or statue], which I had ordered to be brought with the images of the gods into court for this reason, and when they reviled Christ [Christo male dicere]. I understand that no one who is really a Christian can be made to do these things. Other people, whose names were given to me by an informer, first said that they were Christians and then denied it. They said that they had stopped being Christian two or more years ago, and some more than twenty. They all venerated your image and the images of the gods as the others did,and reviled Christ. They also maintained that the sum total of this guilt or error was no more than the following. They had met regularly before dawn on a determined day, and sung antiphonally a hymn to Christ as if to a god [carmenque Christo quasi deo decere secum invicem]. They also took an oath not for any crime, but to keep from theft, robbery and adultery, not to break any promise, and not to withhold a deposit when reclaimed.” (Letter 96:10; Van Voorst, page 25) ·Christ is mentioned three times in this letter to the emperor Trajan; ·the text of the two letters (Pliny's Letter 96, and Trajan's reply Letter 97) are well-attested and stable, and their authenticity is not seriously disputed; ·supposed 'Christian interpolators' would not have testified to Christian apostasy or speak disparagingly of Christianity calling it 'madness' (amentia), etc. ·Christ here is the divine leader of this religion, worshiped by Christians, so that cursing him is tantamount to rejecting Christianity (cf. 1 Cor 12:3). Tacitus (c. 116 AD) “Therefore, to put down the rumor, Nero substituted as culprits and punished in the most unusual ways those hated for their shameful acts [flagitia], whom the crowd called 'Chrestians.' The founder of this name, Christ, had been executed in the reign of Tiberius by the procurator Pontius Pilate [Auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat]. Suppressed for a time, the deadly superstition erupted again not only in Judea, the origin of this evil, but also in the city [Rome], where all things horrible and shameful from everywhere come together and become popular. Therefore, first those who admitted to it were arrested, then on their information a very large multitude was convicted, not so much for the crime of arson as for hatred of the human race [odium humani generis]. Derision was added to their end: they were covered with the skins of wild animals and torn to death by dogs; or they were crucified and when the day ended they were burned as torches. Nero provided his gardens for the spectacle and gave a show in his circus, mixing with the people in charioteer's clothing, or standing on his racing chariot.” (Annals 15:44; Van Voorst, page 41-42) ·Christ is definitely mentioned here by a major Roman historian as being 'the founder' of Christianity and as 'executed in the reign of Tiberius' under Pontius Pilate; ·there are good reasons to conclude with the vast majority of scholars that the passage is fundamentally sound, despite some difficulties (e.g. compressed style); ·Christian forgers would not have made such disparaging remarks about Christianity; ·the only textual difficulty is the word Christians, Christianoi or Chrestianoi, with the latter being the 'earliest reading' although more difficult. Seutonius (c. 120 AD) “He [Claudius] expelled the Jews from Rome, since they were always making disturbances because of this instigator Chrestus [Judaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit].”(Lives of the Caesars, book 5, Claudius 25:4; Van Voorst, page 30) ·Christ appears to be mentioned by this Roman historian under the name 'Chrestus'; ·besides one textual variant that reads 'Christ' (instead of 'Chresto') the Latin text is sound; ·a Christian interpolator would more likely have spelled his name correctly, and would not have placed him in Rome in 49 AD or called him a 'troublemaker'; ·the overwhelming majority of modern scholarship concludes this sentence is genuine, and that 'Chrestus' is indeed Christ.
Run a search because that horseshit has been dismissed time and again on these boards. I don't feel like schooling you because you seem like a garden variety troll and not worth anyone's time.
(May 13, 2015 at 11:28 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Run a search because that horseshit has been dismissed time and again on these boards. I don't feel like schooling you because you seem like a garden variety troll and not worth anyone's time.
May 13, 2015 at 11:49 pm (This post was last modified: May 13, 2015 at 11:49 pm by SteelCurtain.)
(May 13, 2015 at 10:59 pm)Randy Carson Wrote:
The Historical Jesus – Jewish, Roman and Pagan References
Thallus (AD 52) In his work of history, Julius Africanus mentions two earlier historians, Phlegon and Thallus, who in turn made references to Jesus. Thallus: ·Acknowledges that Jesus was a real person ·Confirms that Jesus was crucified ·Mentions an earthquake and darkness (possibly an eclipse) – both were said to have occurred at the time of Jesus’ death in the gospels. Mara bar Serapion (ca. AD 73) “What advantage did the Athenians gain by murdering Socrates, for which they were repaid with famine and pestilence? Or the people of Samos by the burning of Pythagoras, because their country was completely covered in sand in just one hour? Or the Jews [by killing] their wise king, because their kingdom was taken away at that very time? God justly repaid the wisdom of these three men: the Athenians died of famine; the Samians were completely overwhelmed by the sea; and the Jews, desolate and driven from their own kingdom, are scattered through every nation. Socrates is not dead, because of Plato; neither is Pythagoras, because of the statue of Juno; nor is the wise king, because of the new laws he laid down.” (Letter in Syriac to his son; Van Voorst, page 54) ·while Jesus is not named, and 'wise king' is not a common Christological title, Jesus is doubtless meant by 'their wise king'; ·Mara a Jew writing to his son, speaks of this 'wise' Jew as a king, and 'king [of the Jews]' is prominently connected to Jesus at his trial (e.g. Mark 15:26); ·the link between the destruction of the Jewish nation and the death of the 'wise king' is parallel in Christianity to the destruction of Jerusalem as a punishment for Jewish rejection of Jesus (cf. Matt 23:37-39; 24:2; 27:25; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 19:42-44; 21:5-24; 23:28-31); ·the mention of 'the new laws he laid down' is probably a reference to the Christian religion, especially its moral code; ·Mara probably doesn't mention Jesus directly because it was the Romans who desolated and dispersed the Jews -- he does not want to offend his captors, the people who hold his loved ones. Josephus (c. 93-94 AD) “At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.” (Antiquities XVIII, 63 from Josephus: The Essential Writings by Paul L. Maier, page 264-265; this text is from An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications by S. Pines [Jerusalem, 1971]; another translation of above found in Van Voorst, page 97; for a different version of the text infamously interpolated by later Christian editors, see discussion in Van Voorst, page 85ff; also full discussion in A Marginal Jew, volume 1 by John P. Meier, pages 56ff) ·this text, which definitely mentions Jesus and his crucifixion under Pilate by a well-known Jewish historian of the first century, is hotly disputed because of possible later 'Christian interpolation' but the above is the Arabic text found without these 'Christian' additions; ·this version leaves the question of Jesus' messianic status neutral ("perhaps the Messiah"); ·this is another piece corroborating a 'neutral reconstruction' of the Testimonium (which is the preferred view among scholars); ·the neutral reconstruction, which isolates and removes the later pro-Christian interpolations, makes good sense of the pattern of ancient Christian witnesses to Josephus (e.g. Van Voorst, page 95-97). “Upon Festus' death, Caesar sent Albinus to Judea as procurator. But before he arrived, King Agrippa had appointed Ananus to the priesthood, who was the son of the elder Ananus [or Annas of the Gospels]. This elder Ananus, after he himself had been high priest, had five sons, all of whom achieved that office, which was unparalleled. The younger Ananus, however, was rash and followed the Sadducees, who are heartless when they sit in judgment. Ananus thought that with Festus dead and Albinus still on the way, he would have his opportunity. Convening the judges of the Sanhedrin, he brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law, and condemned them to be stoned to death.” (Antiquities XX, 197; from Josephus, Maier, page 275-276; another translation in Van Voorst, page 83) ·we have a passing but clear reference to Jesus here, and to Jesus' brother named James (cf. Gal 1:19); ·the overwhelming majority of scholars holds that the words 'the brother of Jesus called Christ' are authentic, as is the entire passage in which it is found; ·the passage fits in well with its own context; ·a Christian 'interpolator' would have used laudatory language to describe James and especially Jesus, calling him 'the Lord' or similar language. Pliny the Younger (c. 112 AD) “An anonymous accusatory pamphlet has been circulated containing the named of many people. I decided to dismiss any who denied that they are or ever have been Christians when they repeated after me a formula invoking the gods and made offerings of wine and incense to your image [or statue], which I had ordered to be brought with the images of the gods into court for this reason, and when they reviled Christ [Christo male dicere]. I understand that no one who is really a Christian can be made to do these things. Other people, whose names were given to me by an informer, first said that they were Christians and then denied it. They said that they had stopped being Christian two or more years ago, and some more than twenty. They all venerated your image and the images of the gods as the others did,and reviled Christ. They also maintained that the sum total of this guilt or error was no more than the following. They had met regularly before dawn on a determined day, and sung antiphonally a hymn to Christ as if to a god [carmenque Christo quasi deo decere secum invicem]. They also took an oath not for any crime, but to keep from theft, robbery and adultery, not to break any promise, and not to withhold a deposit when reclaimed.” (Letter 96:10; Van Voorst, page 25) ·Christ is mentioned three times in this letter to the emperor Trajan; ·the text of the two letters (Pliny's Letter 96, and Trajan's reply Letter 97) are well-attested and stable, and their authenticity is not seriously disputed; ·supposed 'Christian interpolators' would not have testified to Christian apostasy or speak disparagingly of Christianity calling it 'madness' (amentia), etc. ·Christ here is the divine leader of this religion, worshiped by Christians, so that cursing him is tantamount to rejecting Christianity (cf. 1 Cor 12:3). Tacitus (c. 116 AD) “Therefore, to put down the rumor, Nero substituted as culprits and punished in the most unusual ways those hated for their shameful acts [flagitia], whom the crowd called 'Chrestians.' The founder of this name, Christ, had been executed in the reign of Tiberius by the procurator Pontius Pilate [Auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat]. Suppressed for a time, the deadly superstition erupted again not only in Judea, the origin of this evil, but also in the city [Rome], where all things horrible and shameful from everywhere come together and become popular. Therefore, first those who admitted to it were arrested, then on their information a very large multitude was convicted, not so much for the crime of arson as for hatred of the human race [odium humani generis]. Derision was added to their end: they were covered with the skins of wild animals and torn to death by dogs; or they were crucified and when the day ended they were burned as torches. Nero provided his gardens for the spectacle and gave a show in his circus, mixing with the people in charioteer's clothing, or standing on his racing chariot.” (Annals 15:44; Van Voorst, page 41-42) ·Christ is definitely mentioned here by a major Roman historian as being 'the founder' of Christianity and as 'executed in the reign of Tiberius' under Pontius Pilate; ·there are good reasons to conclude with the vast majority of scholars that the passage is fundamentally sound, despite some difficulties (e.g. compressed style); ·Christian forgers would not have made such disparaging remarks about Christianity; ·the only textual difficulty is the word Christians, Christianoi or Chrestianoi, with the latter being the 'earliest reading' although more difficult. Seutonius (c. 120 AD) “He [Claudius] expelled the Jews from Rome, since they were always making disturbances because of this instigator Chrestus [Judaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit].”(Lives of the Caesars, book 5, Claudius 25:4; Van Voorst, page 30) ·Christ appears to be mentioned by this Roman historian under the name 'Chrestus'; ·besides one textual variant that reads 'Christ' (instead of 'Chresto') the Latin text is sound; ·a Christian interpolator would more likely have spelled his name correctly, and would not have placed him in Rome in 49 AD or called him a 'troublemaker'; ·the overwhelming majority of modern scholarship concludes this sentence is genuine, and that 'Chrestus' is indeed Christ.
Modhat on: It is against forum rules to copypasta. If you are going to steal someone else's ideas, you should at least give them credit instead of passing them off as your own. This will not be tolerated in the future.
"There remain four irreducible objections to religious faith: that it wholly misrepresents the origins of man and the cosmos, that because of this original error it manages to combine the maximum servility with the maximum of solipsism, that it is both the result and the cause of dangerous sexual repression, and that it is ultimately grounded on wish-thinking." ~Christopher Hitchens, god is not Great
PM me your email address to join the Slack chat! I'll give you a taco(or five) if you join!--->There's an app and everything!<---
The Historical Jesus – Jewish, Roman and Pagan References
Thallus (AD 52) In his work of history, Julius Africanus mentions two earlier historians, Phlegon and Thallus, who in turn made references to Jesus. Thallus: ·Acknowledges that Jesus was a real person ·Confirms that Jesus was crucified ·Mentions an earthquake and darkness (possibly an eclipse) – both were said to have occurred at the time of Jesus’ death in the gospels. Mara bar Serapion (ca. AD 73) “What advantage did the Athenians gain by murdering Socrates, for which they were repaid with famine and pestilence? Or the people of Samos by the burning of Pythagoras, because their country was completely covered in sand in just one hour? Or the Jews [by killing] their wise king, because their kingdom was taken away at that very time? God justly repaid the wisdom of these three men: the Athenians died of famine; the Samians were completely overwhelmed by the sea; and the Jews, desolate and driven from their own kingdom, are scattered through every nation. Socrates is not dead, because of Plato; neither is Pythagoras, because of the statue of Juno; nor is the wise king, because of the new laws he laid down.” (Letter in Syriac to his son; Van Voorst, page 54) ·while Jesus is not named, and 'wise king' is not a common Christological title, Jesus is doubtless meant by 'their wise king'; ·Mara a Jew writing to his son, speaks of this 'wise' Jew as a king, and 'king [of the Jews]' is prominently connected to Jesus at his trial (e.g. Mark 15:26); ·the link between the destruction of the Jewish nation and the death of the 'wise king' is parallel in Christianity to the destruction of Jerusalem as a punishment for Jewish rejection of Jesus (cf. Matt 23:37-39; 24:2; 27:25; Mark 13:1-2; Luke 19:42-44; 21:5-24; 23:28-31); ·the mention of 'the new laws he laid down' is probably a reference to the Christian religion, especially its moral code; ·Mara probably doesn't mention Jesus directly because it was the Romans who desolated and dispersed the Jews -- he does not want to offend his captors, the people who hold his loved ones. Josephus (c. 93-94 AD) “At this time there was a wise man called Jesus, and his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. Many people among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have reported wonders. And the tribe of the Christians, so named after him, has not disappeared to this day.” (Antiquities XVIII, 63 from Josephus: The Essential Writings by Paul L. Maier, page 264-265; this text is from An Arabic Version of the Testimonium Flavianum and Its Implications by S. Pines [Jerusalem, 1971]; another translation of above found in Van Voorst, page 97; for a different version of the text infamously interpolated by later Christian editors, see discussion in Van Voorst, page 85ff; also full discussion in A Marginal Jew, volume 1 by John P. Meier, pages 56ff) ·this text, which definitely mentions Jesus and his crucifixion under Pilate by a well-known Jewish historian of the first century, is hotly disputed because of possible later 'Christian interpolation' but the above is the Arabic text found without these 'Christian' additions; ·this version leaves the question of Jesus' messianic status neutral ("perhaps the Messiah"); ·this is another piece corroborating a 'neutral reconstruction' of the Testimonium (which is the preferred view among scholars); ·the neutral reconstruction, which isolates and removes the later pro-Christian interpolations, makes good sense of the pattern of ancient Christian witnesses to Josephus (e.g. Van Voorst, page 95-97). “Upon Festus' death, Caesar sent Albinus to Judea as procurator. But before he arrived, King Agrippa had appointed Ananus to the priesthood, who was the son of the elder Ananus [or Annas of the Gospels]. This elder Ananus, after he himself had been high priest, had five sons, all of whom achieved that office, which was unparalleled. The younger Ananus, however, was rash and followed the Sadducees, who are heartless when they sit in judgment. Ananus thought that with Festus dead and Albinus still on the way, he would have his opportunity. Convening the judges of the Sanhedrin, he brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others. He accused them of having transgressed the law, and condemned them to be stoned to death.” (Antiquities XX, 197; from Josephus, Maier, page 275-276; another translation in Van Voorst, page 83) ·we have a passing but clear reference to Jesus here, and to Jesus' brother named James (cf. Gal 1:19); ·the overwhelming majority of scholars holds that the words 'the brother of Jesus called Christ' are authentic, as is the entire passage in which it is found; ·the passage fits in well with its own context; ·a Christian 'interpolator' would have used laudatory language to describe James and especially Jesus, calling him 'the Lord' or similar language. Pliny the Younger (c. 112 AD) “An anonymous accusatory pamphlet has been circulated containing the named of many people. I decided to dismiss any who denied that they are or ever have been Christians when they repeated after me a formula invoking the gods and made offerings of wine and incense to your image [or statue], which I had ordered to be brought with the images of the gods into court for this reason, and when they reviled Christ [Christo male dicere]. I understand that no one who is really a Christian can be made to do these things. Other people, whose names were given to me by an informer, first said that they were Christians and then denied it. They said that they had stopped being Christian two or more years ago, and some more than twenty. They all venerated your image and the images of the gods as the others did,and reviled Christ. They also maintained that the sum total of this guilt or error was no more than the following. They had met regularly before dawn on a determined day, and sung antiphonally a hymn to Christ as if to a god [carmenque Christo quasi deo decere secum invicem]. They also took an oath not for any crime, but to keep from theft, robbery and adultery, not to break any promise, and not to withhold a deposit when reclaimed.” (Letter 96:10; Van Voorst, page 25) ·Christ is mentioned three times in this letter to the emperor Trajan; ·the text of the two letters (Pliny's Letter 96, and Trajan's reply Letter 97) are well-attested and stable, and their authenticity is not seriously disputed; ·supposed 'Christian interpolators' would not have testified to Christian apostasy or speak disparagingly of Christianity calling it 'madness' (amentia), etc. ·Christ here is the divine leader of this religion, worshiped by Christians, so that cursing him is tantamount to rejecting Christianity (cf. 1 Cor 12:3). Tacitus (c. 116 AD) “Therefore, to put down the rumor, Nero substituted as culprits and punished in the most unusual ways those hated for their shameful acts [flagitia], whom the crowd called 'Chrestians.' The founder of this name, Christ, had been executed in the reign of Tiberius by the procurator Pontius Pilate [Auctor nominis eius Christus Tiberio imperitante per procuratorem Pontium Pilatum supplicio adfectus erat]. Suppressed for a time, the deadly superstition erupted again not only in Judea, the origin of this evil, but also in the city [Rome], where all things horrible and shameful from everywhere come together and become popular. Therefore, first those who admitted to it were arrested, then on their information a very large multitude was convicted, not so much for the crime of arson as for hatred of the human race [odium humani generis]. Derision was added to their end: they were covered with the skins of wild animals and torn to death by dogs; or they were crucified and when the day ended they were burned as torches. Nero provided his gardens for the spectacle and gave a show in his circus, mixing with the people in charioteer's clothing, or standing on his racing chariot.” (Annals 15:44; Van Voorst, page 41-42) ·Christ is definitely mentioned here by a major Roman historian as being 'the founder' of Christianity and as 'executed in the reign of Tiberius' under Pontius Pilate; ·there are good reasons to conclude with the vast majority of scholars that the passage is fundamentally sound, despite some difficulties (e.g. compressed style); ·Christian forgers would not have made such disparaging remarks about Christianity; ·the only textual difficulty is the word Christians, Christianoi or Chrestianoi, with the latter being the 'earliest reading' although more difficult. Seutonius (c. 120 AD) “He [Claudius] expelled the Jews from Rome, since they were always making disturbances because of this instigator Chrestus [Judaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit].”(Lives of the Caesars, book 5, Claudius 25:4; Van Voorst, page 30) ·Christ appears to be mentioned by this Roman historian under the name 'Chrestus'; ·besides one textual variant that reads 'Christ' (instead of 'Chresto') the Latin text is sound; ·a Christian interpolator would more likely have spelled his name correctly, and would not have placed him in Rome in 49 AD or called him a 'troublemaker'; ·the overwhelming majority of modern scholarship concludes this sentence is genuine, and that 'Chrestus' is indeed Christ.
Instead of arguing with Min, why don't you try proving to me that "the LXX" existed in a complete form prior to the 3rd century AD? Unlike you I didn't copy-paste it - don't need to. And if it's so great why did Jerome - and everyone else from the 4th century on - discard the book of Daniel from it?
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
May 14, 2015 at 10:33 am (This post was last modified: May 14, 2015 at 10:34 am by Randy Carson.)
(May 14, 2015 at 10:08 am)Aractus Wrote: Instead of arguing with Min, why don't you try proving to me that "the LXX" existed in a complete form prior to the 3rd century AD? Unlike you I didn't copy-paste it - don't need to. And if it's so great why did Jerome - and everyone else from the 4th century on - discard the book of Daniel from it?
I'll just source a bit from the following website:
Septuagint - What is It?
Septuagint (sometimes abbreviated LXX) is the name given to the Greek translation of the Jewish Scriptures. The Septuagint has its origin in Alexandria, Egypt and was translated between 300-200 BC. Widely used among Hellenistic Jews, this Greek translation was produced because many Jews spread throughout the empire were beginning to lose their Hebrew language. The process of translating the Hebrew to Greek also gave many non-Jews a glimpse into Judaism. According to an ancient document called the Letter of Aristeas, it is believed that 70 to 72 Jewish scholars were commissioned during the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphus to carry out the task of translation. The term “Septuagint” means seventy in Latin, and the text is so named to the credit of these 70 scholars.
http://www.septuagint.net/
By the way, if anyone can tell me how to indent an entire block of text such as the one above (and not just the first line), I would be very grateful. Thanks.
Once again, you regurgitate the fraudulent Letter of Aristeas and pretend that the tale it tells is true instead of simply being later jewish propaganda to explain why their holy horseshit first appeared in Greek.
Quote:Philological analysis by Luis Vives, published in XXII libros de Civitate Dei Commentaria (1522), proposed that the pseudepigraphic letter was a forgery, being written by an author living half a century after Ptolemy II Philadelphus (285-246 B.C) and assuming the name of Aristeas. The inconsistencies and anachronisms of the author, examined and exposed first by Humphrey Hody (1659—1706),[9] place the writing closer to 170-130 BCE. Hody's Oxford dissertation of 1685 provoked an "angry and scurrilous reply" from Isaac Vossius (1618–1689), who had been librarian to Queen Christina of Sweden, in the appendix to his Observations on Pomponius Mela, 1686, to which Hody conclusively replied in notes to his reprint of 1705.[10] Due to this, the author of the letter of Aristeas is most often referred to as pseudo-Aristeas.[11]
Be that as it may - the simple fact remains that we have no indication of the OT existing in written form in Hebrew (or Aramaic). One suspects that it was an oral tale written down by Greek authors.
And the late 2d century BC is the time when this would have mattered to anyone for political reasons.
