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RE: How do Christians justify not being catholic?
April 22, 2015 at 5:05 pm
(April 21, 2015 at 2:01 pm)Alex K Wrote: What the title says. Didn't Jesus pretty explicitly state that
Quote:And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
and wouldn't that entail that only the Roman church is the the rightful successor of Jesus? I'm just interested in the rationale of evangelical/protestant Christians behind rejecting this claim.
As others have said, that would actually be the Orthodox Church, which predates Rome's authority. But either way, Protestants reject that authority on the grounds that there was a "early church" that predates the one established by the Roman Empire.
This "pure, simple, early church" only exists in Christian dreamscapes.
This is the motif of any schismatic church. They don't claim to be rebelling against religious authority. They're "getting back" to a more pure version of what the religion was supposed to be in the first place before it was "corrupted" and that it is the religious authority who are the ones who have strayed from the path.
So it is with Protestantism.
So it is with Islam.
So it is with Mormonism.
So it is with Nicene Christianity in general over Judaism.
Remember that Jesus did not fulfill the roles that the Jewish Messiah was supposed to fulfill. The Jews were expecting a glorious warlord that would lead Israel to ultimate victory, conquering the world. Christians tie themselves into knots trying to reconcile how this peace-and-love hippy that preached a universal religion (supposedly) was the Jewish Messiah. Yet somehow, Christians believe the Jews have gotten it wrong and they should have gotten on the Jesus bandwagon.
I could go into further detail over the personal-relationship-with-Jesus-over-following-the-vicars-of-Christ argument that is the general flavor of Protestantism but you get the idea.
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... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
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RE: How do Christians justify not being catholic?
April 23, 2015 at 3:30 pm
(April 21, 2015 at 2:01 pm)Alex K Wrote: What the title says. Didn't Jesus pretty explicitly state that
Quote:And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
and wouldn't that entail that only the Roman church is the the rightful successor of Jesus? I'm just interested in the rationale of evangelical/protestant Christians behind rejecting this claim.
Here you go.
If it could be proven beyond doubt that God exists...
and that He is the one spoken of in the Bible...
would you repent of your sins and place your faith in Jesus Christ?
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RE: How do Christians justify not being catholic?
April 23, 2015 at 5:21 pm
(April 23, 2015 at 3:30 pm)orangebox21 Wrote: Here you go.
This is not an argument against this website's arguments but I really can't resist pointing out the delicious irony that the author of this apologetic site is named "Slick".
He's actually named "Slick".
Seriously, his name is "Slick".
Full disclaimer that this is not an argument but bwahahahahahahaha.
I'll read up on what Mr. ...Slick ...excuse me... bwahahahahahahahahahahaha ...OK, I'm back, I'll read what HE has to offer.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
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... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: How do Christians justify not being catholic?
April 24, 2015 at 7:36 am
The protestant attempt at self justification will be to pull some Calvinist BS out of their orifices.
They then make claims about putting words in Jesus' mouth blatantly ignoring the additions to the Lord's Prayer that they made.
They'll also make claims about the bible being superior to the church, despite the fact that the Catholics compiled it from those texts that could be 'interpreted' to support trinitarianism whilst those texts that did not were declared to be apocrypha.
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
- Esquilax
Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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RE: How do Christians justify not being catholic?
April 24, 2015 at 7:59 am
(April 24, 2015 at 7:36 am)Mr Greene Wrote: The protestant attempt at self justification will be to pull some Calvinist BS out of their orifices.
They then make claims about putting words in Jesus' mouth blatantly ignoring the additions to the Lord's Prayer that they made.
They'll also make claims about the bible being superior to the church, despite the fact that the Catholics compiled it from those texts that could be 'interpreted' to support trinitarianism whilst those texts that did not were declared to be apocrypha.
That right there is the killer, isn't it.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: How do Christians justify not being catholic?
April 24, 2015 at 9:14 am
(April 24, 2015 at 7:59 am)Alex K Wrote: (April 24, 2015 at 7:36 am)Mr Greene Wrote: The protestant attempt at self justification will be to pull some Calvinist BS out of their orifices.
They then make claims about putting words in Jesus' mouth blatantly ignoring the additions to the Lord's Prayer that they made.
They'll also make claims about the bible being superior to the church, despite the fact that the Catholics compiled it from those texts that could be 'interpreted' to support trinitarianism whilst those texts that did not were declared to be apocrypha.
That right there is the killer, isn't it.
Actually, no. One might accept the idea that Catholicism was basically correct over 1500 years ago, but that does not entail the belief that the organization is still right. A lot can change in over 1500 years, and so it is unreasonable to conclude that the Catholic Church is right now even if they were absolutely perfect 1500 years ago. That seems to be basically Martin Luther's attitude, that the Church had been right, but was corrupted over time. That justifies no longer following it.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
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RE: How do Christians justify not being catholic?
April 24, 2015 at 11:01 am
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: How do Christians justify not being catholic?
April 25, 2015 at 11:32 pm
(April 21, 2015 at 2:01 pm)Alex K Wrote: What the title says. Didn't Jesus pretty explicitly state that
Quote:And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
and wouldn't that entail that only the Roman church is the the rightful successor of Jesus? I'm just interested in the rationale of evangelical/protestant Christians behind rejecting this claim.
When the Jesus character compared Peter to being a rock he was comparing Peter to being equal to God himself. That's probably why God had Jesus crucified.
Deuteronomy chapter 32 is filled with the word "Rock" as a metaphor for God.
As it says in Deuteronomy 32:4 (RSVCE) = "The Rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness and without iniquity, just and right is he."
and Deuteronomy 32:18 (RSVCE) = "You were unmindful of the Rock that begot you, and you forgot the God who gave you birth."
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RE: How do Christians justify not being catholic?
April 26, 2015 at 10:12 am
Maybe this would help:
After Pete said to Jesus,"You are the Christ", Jesus said to him, "You are Petros (masculine- a rock) and upon this Petra (feminine- a gigantic rock like Gibraltar) (Pete's confession of Who Jesus is) I will build My Church.
There is more though.
The prophecy ( I think by Paul) was that in the last days some would DEPART from the faith (the Christian faith)- giving heed to seducing spirits- FORBIDDING to marry and FORBIDDING to eat meats.
Now, which organization is this practice found in?
Ever hear of Catholic priests? (can't marry)
How about Lent? Or fish Friday?
It was stated these would be a couple of signs they have DEPARTED from the Biblical New Testament faith.
Oh, you want more?
OK.
The Mass is a re-sacrifice (fake) ceremony whereby the priest holds up the wafer god (called "Transubstantiation" where he changes the Babylonian/ Egyptian disc into "Jesus" body via a hocus pocus chant.
The official position of the organization for hundreds of years is and has been- anyone denying transubstantiation is CURSED.
The Mass is the foundation of Catholicism, attendance to it is mandatory, along with "Holy days of obligation".
This is NOT Christianity.
"Catholic" means "Universal".
The devil saw he could not kill Christianity by persecution so he created a hierarchy to displace it.
Within that system there are people who do trust what Jesus did personally for them,
and to these people the call will be "Come out of her- My people that you not share in her plagues"
Revelation 18;4.
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RE: How do Christians justify not being catholic?
April 27, 2015 at 12:16 am
(This post was last modified: April 27, 2015 at 1:10 am by Huggy Bear.)
(April 21, 2015 at 2:01 pm)Alex K Wrote: What the title says. Didn't Jesus pretty explicitly state that
Quote:And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
and wouldn't that entail that only the Roman church is the the rightful successor of Jesus? I'm just interested in the rationale of evangelical/protestant Christians behind rejecting this claim.
That scripture isn't in its full context. Jesus isn't talking about building his church on Peter (whom he rebuked later in that same chapter btw) but upon "revelation". If Peter was such a "rock" why did he deny Jesus 3 times?
If you look at the scripture in it's full context, then the meaning is clear.
Quote:Matthew 16
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven (has revealed it).
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (speaking of revelation) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
(*the parts in parentheses are my edits)
Five verses down in the same chapter, Jesus rebukes Peter (well, Satan actually, who was acting through Peter).
Quote:Matthew 16
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Clearly Jesus wasn't speaking of building his church on Peter but upon revelation.
Receiving a revelation Is essentially like having an epiphany, something that was hidden is made suddenly clear. You cannot begin to understand the Bible with out having revelation (hence why it's the foundation of the church).
Quote:Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
An example of revelation would be in Acts 2:38 when Peter commanded the people to be baptized in the "name of Jesus Christ"
Quote:Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Why would Peter contradict Jesus when Jesus clearly stated to baptize in the "name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost"?
Quote:Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Because Peter, having a "revelation" of who Jesus Christ was, Knew that Jesus WAS the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, he was all of it.
Quote:Revelation 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
The Catholic church does not have this revelation, they literally baptize in the "name of the father, son and holy ghost" of which, none are names but titles, the NAME of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is Jesus Christ.
Hopefully that makes sense.
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