War Crimes

[Shell B]

Ok, people seem to be ignoring another issue here. Yes, civilians get killed in war. Yes, war should be the absolute last course of action. Yes, there will be instances where things go wrong and innocent people are targeted as the enemy.

The actions of the people in the film can possibly be excused if you hold the technology and actual war accountable instead. However, the actions of the US government by denying that this took place, and the spreading of the lie that the chopper was fired upon first should be highlighted. Once the facts came out, and Reuters announced that their journalists had been killed in this firefight, a full investigation should have taken place. Reuters asked for the chopper video 2 years ago as part of the freedom of information act, and it was denied. Why? Possibly because it shows that the US government lied about what happened, that the chopper was not "fired upon", and that this action was not done in self-defense.

Why do governments have such problems with admitting to errors? Why can't they apologise for their mistakes?

I could just say it is the nature of governments. Really, it's damage control. Unnecessary, not well thought out, selfish, damage control.

I will agree with you that the United States government did the wrong thing here. Spreading a lie. Not conducting a full investigation, etc., etc. You're right; they should have apologized.

My contention with how a lot of people are reacting to the video is that the heat is now coming down on a group of soldiers who did their jobs. We may not like their jobs. We may not like the mistakes they sometimes make, but the fact of the matter is that they behaved in the very way they were trained to. Everyone makes mistakes at work. When your job is to kill people who are trying to kill you, your mistakes are a little more disastrous.

[leo-rcc]

Why do governments have such problems with admitting to errors? Why can't they apologise for their mistakes?

I think that this is still a legacy of the old propaganda machine. The government still wanting to keep mistakes like these under wraps to give the impression at the home front that everything is fine and "we" are winning.

The more and more these things get exposed to the general public by using the very technology they helped pioneering this will come to pass. Even very closed countries find it harder and harder to hide their atrocities, it is just a matter of time and technology getting more widespread.

[Ace Otana]

Felt kinda sick watching them gun down civilians and the cold comments they made after killing them. War is a very sick game that effects everyone.

These trigger happy pricks had plenty of time to properly idenitify them and what they carried. They wern't being shot at or anything! So why kill them?
Also a van picking up bodies...what the fuck does that tell you? No one that comes out the van is armed nor are they displaying any hostile intentions so why fire on them? Seriously, a van picking up bodies...ambulance anyone?
What chance do you think anyone has when going against an attack helli? A pistol would do nothing to it, and I doubt an ak47 would either. It's heavily armoured! A van with two kids inside is considered a threat to it or something? The comments they made tell me they didn't give a shit about taking lives. Nor did they have any real concern with killing civvies!
Think before touching the trigger.

[Tiberius]

The problem is that the targeting system is designed to light up living objects against the background, preventing camouflage. This is all well and good, apart from the fact it reduces everything to shapes with no detail. If the chopper had an alternate camera, or a way to turn the filter off (and so get more accurate images) this could have been prevented.

"I think he has an RPG."
*turns off targeting system*
"Wait, no, it's just a camera."

Is it seriously that hard to implement such steps that could save the lives of innocent civilians?

[leo-rcc]

Yes because this might just as easily have happened:

"I think he has an RPG."
*turns off targeting system*
"shit its coming right at us."

[Ace Otana]

The problem is that the targeting system is designed to light up living objects against the background, preventing camouflage. This is all well and good, apart from the fact it reduces everything to shapes with no detail. If the chopper had an alternate camera, or a way to turn the filter off (and so get more accurate images) this could have been prevented.

"I think he has an RPG."
*turns off targeting system*
"Wait, no, it's just a camera."

Is it seriously that hard to implement such steps that could save the lives of innocent civilians?

I agree, if you can't get a clear enough view with the targeting system then just result to evolution given eyes! They work fine.
Your eyes give you a clearer view than any computer can. Your eyes give you greater detail. If you cannot confirm targets with a computer, then go old fashion. There are other methods of identification. Also logic would show that if there is no fire coming from them and that you haven't confirmed any weaponry, then maybe firing at them would be a very shitty idea.

What's worse is that the government actually denies the attack on civilians! At least own up. It wouldn't of been so bad if the government was honest and apologised for their enormous thoughtless mistake. To hide it as if it's nothing is just one huge insult. Civilians die in wars but at least own up to your mistakes.

[Shell B]

Felt kinda sick watching them gun down civilians and the cold comments they made after killing them. War is a very sick game that effects everyone.

These trigger happy pricks had plenty of time to properly idenitify them and what they carried. They wern't being shot at or anything! So why kill them?
Also a van picking up bodies...what the fuck does that tell you? No one that comes out the van is armed nor are they displaying any hostile intentions so why fire on them? Seriously, a van picking up bodies...ambulance anyone?
What chance do you think anyone has when going against an attack helli? A pistol would do nothing to it, and I doubt an ak47 would either. It's heavily armoured! A van with two kids inside is considered a threat to it or something? The comments they made tell me they didn't give a shit about taking lives. Nor did they have any real concern with killing civvies!
Think before touching the trigger.

I understand your sentiment. However, you have to understand the mentality of a soldier before you call them trigger happy pricks. The thing is, you can't be sentimental and do what they do. The war has been going on for so long now that some of these men are doing their third, fourth or even fifth tours. If they got sentimental about every person they killed, they would never make it over there. This is a fact.

I don't know what your experience with returning soldiers is, but mine is, unfortunately, extensive. I'm willing to bet that each and every one of them felt regret that they deal with everyday now, when they learned that those people were civilians. They do give a shit about taking lives, but in many cases they have to. Also, soldiers don't have a way with words, more often than not. They all sound like that. Nonetheless, when they come home to tell their wives, their parents, their counselors, etc, about what happened, that callous language is coupled with an inner anguish that none of us civilians will ever understand.

Also, had it been an RPG, it could have easily taken out a chopper. That is what they thought they saw. Oh, and they had been informed that there were insurgents in the area. Troops on the ground had been taking fire. This tends to make soldiers suspicious of anyone on the ground. Why? Because when insurgents are about, most civilians (save careless journalists and idiots who don't wait until the chopper is gone to retrieve the dead) go inside. I've always said that any person who is standing about when a riot is occurring around them deserves what the cops do to them. Any innocent person would run away. The same goes for war, minus the exceptions I listed above.

Adrian is right. Their equipment sometimes hinders them, more than helping them. However, I'm almost positive that they can't just turn it off. When soldiers train, they train to use specific equipment, at specific times. They had not been given an order to take a closer look. They had been given leave to shoot. So, that is what they did. The language they used while doing so does not change the fact that they did exactly what their boss (the government) told them to do when faced with such a situation.

[Ace Otana]

I understand what your saying. Fighting and fighting will have an impact on you. I also do think that walking around in a hot zone with large camaras is a bit of a daft thing to do, however, the helli was orbiting that area for quite a while and had plenty of time to gather futher data and confirmation before punching bullets through people. They had a good long look and could of told their commanders that they wern't entirely sure if they were armed.

Also yes it's wrong to bring a van with two kids inside to a hot zone. However, there was no obivous sign that they were armed, hostile and that no fire came from them. They were picking up bodies, how does that equals hostile?

I think both sides did stupid things. However, who had the guns? Who did the shooting?

[Tiberius]

Yes because this might just as easily have happened:

"I think he has an RPG."
*turns off targeting system*
"shit its coming right at us."

Ever heard of evasive maneuvers? The helicopter was hundreds of metres away, keeping a safe distance in the first place. At the end of the day, they are the ones in the armoured vehicle, flying with an incredibly powerful motor that allows them to move rapidly around to avoid things, and they are the ones with the powerful machine gun on board.

There is a reason we use helicopters in modern warfare. Taking them down is very hard. If they did get shot at, they'd have a reason to attack back, but they had no reason whatsoever to attack those people. They thought they saw guns, and decided to go with a "shoot first, ask questions later" wild west approach.

[leo-rcc]

Have you got any idea how fast an rpg7 travels? 117 meters/second. An Apache in hover is not pulling out of that one in that time.