War Crimes

[Shell B]

There were a group of SEALS in Afghanistan near the beginning of the war who were forced to call for backup when a group of insurgents surrounded them on a mountain. Backup was sent via helicopter (I believe more than once). The helicopters were taken out by RPGs. Just thought I'd mention it. Let me go find a source for it. BRB

Look at that, I wrote about it. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...tml?cat=49

[Tiberius]

It wasn't in hover. The video clearly shows it going around in a circle. Add to that the difficulty in firing an RPG accurately from that far away (given wind, gravity, etc) and I still say it is worth doing a bloody check to make sure they aren't going to kill innocent people.

[tavarish]

I've discussed this on a few other forums already.

I've come up with a few observations:

1. The video is pretty disturbing
2. The gunners did not know they were firing on possible civilians and children, they thought they were in immediate danger.
3. Military personnel are trained to distance themselves from the enemy, who by the way, does not follow rules of engagement.
4. The cameramen were in the company of armed insurgents, although the mood was "calm". Not only civilians in the cluster.
5. The attack on the van was overkill, but it's not the army's job to take chances in a wartime scenario. It is literally life or death. Unfortunately, there were mistakes made.

The only real issue I see is that Army officials did not disclose the information and lied about what had happened by pleading ignorance to the subject, when the video proved otherwise.

The cameramen were in the wrong place and the wrong time, and although advanced technology could've avoided this, we can't rely on theoretical solutions to a problem that happened 3 years ago. Hindsight is always 20/20.

At no point did the military personnel think they were firing on civilians or children. This is a horrible turn of events, but something all too real in the confines of a wartime scenario.

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It wasn't in hover. The video clearly shows it going around in a circle. Add to that the difficulty in firing an RPG accurately from that far away (given wind, gravity, etc) and I still say it is worth doing a bloody check to make sure they aren't going to kill innocent people.

Difficult, but not impossible, and there were armed insurgents on the ground.

[Shell B]

It wasn't in hover. The video clearly shows it going around in a circle. Add to that the difficulty in firing an RPG accurately from that far away (given wind, gravity, etc) and I still say it is worth doing a bloody check to make sure they aren't going to kill innocent people.

You'd be surprised at how accurate they are with RPGs. They've been training with them since they were three.

I agree that it is worth it to check. However, they are not duty-bound to do so. That's the point, I think. They do what they're trained to do, not what we would have them do. Why? Because a lot of the time, what they are trained to do will save their life. What we would have them do would put it at risk. Possibly not this time, but honestly, who among us can say how we would react in such a situation? I doubt anyone in this thread has ever even had a gun pulled on them, let alone been shot at daily for months on end.

[leo-rcc]

Look at that, I wrote about it. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...tml?cat=49

Also tragic. Now is a Chinook a very hard target to miss to be honest.

[Tiberius]

I'm gonna give up arguing at this point. You guys are probably right. Sorry for the irritableness, my neck is killing me.

[Shell B]

Look at that, I wrote about it. http://www.associatedcontent.com/article...tml?cat=49

Also tragic. Now is a Chinook a very hard target to miss to be honest.

Quite right. It's more of a personnel carrier. However, it was implied in previous posts that modern copters are maneuverable enough to dodge RPGs. That just doesn't happen.

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I'm gonna give up arguing at this point. You guys are probably right. Sorry for the irritableness, my neck is killing me.

It is our right to question that which we view as wrong. I didn't feel like you were being irritable. Besides, I can see your points. It's just not the fault of the soldiers involved. Although, I can almost guarantee that they have moments when they feel that way. That makes me sad.

[leo-rcc]

Quite right. It's more of a personnel carrier. However, it was implied in previous posts that modern copters are maneuverable enough to dodge RPGs. That just doesn't happen.

That's true. I am at Fairford every year and I am always very impressed when a Hind or a Longbow show their maneuverability, But I've seen RPG's fire, there is no way they can dodge them within 3 seconds.

[Ace Otana]

After reading and considering the points made I have to agree that, the heli was in the area for a decent amount of time to get a good idea of who was down there and what they had on them. Granted that a large round camara poking out of a corner of a building looks just like an RPG and could potentially bring down the heli. Granted that the pilots based on what they thought they saw and with their safety at stake they fired to ensure they don't use the PRG. Agreed that walking in a very dangerous area with big camaras is a bit of a daft thing to do. Especially poking it around the corner of a building.

Agreed that a van driving into a hot zone with two kids inside is a bit of a daft thing to do. Especially if the van has no markings on it to say it's an ambulance. However, I saw nothing threaterning about it. Guys jumping out picking up bodies is hardly a threat to an attack heli. Also kids? What they do? punk their tongues at the heli? Agreed, the firing on the van was over kill.
Oh and the government lying about it was just plain wrong.

So I guess that's it. Does anyone want me to put the kettle on?

[Shell B]

Only if you've got decaf green tea.