Ask a Catholic

[Spooky]

A question:

Many of us Atheists have read the bible (which likely contributed to some of our "deconversions"). So, does it work both ways?

Suppose I provided you a copy of 'The God Delusion', would you read it? If not, why?

I wouldn't have a problem with that because it is useful to understand the arguments of the people you are trying to persuade.

Candidly, the LACK of references to books, articles and so forth has been one of the biggest surprises (and disappointments) of this forum. You are the first person that I can recall actually referencing a book since I joined three weeks ago. I'm used to discussions where people back up what they are saying with links, and quotes with sources, etc.

Perhaps you would be willing to read The God-less Delusion by Patrick Madrid? And there are other responses to Dawkins which may be even better than that one.

And for a good refresher on the Christian basics, I would suggest Luke and Acts...you can read them in a couple of evenings.

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After 19 pages I'll assume that the answer to my reasonable question is: "like chicken".

The accidents of the bread remain.

It seems we're both surprised.  Most christians react as if their eyes would melt just looking at such books.  And likewise, I would not hesitate to read the 'The God-less delusion'.  If I find it for a good price on ebay, I may pick it up.  It will rest in the religion section of my library.  

It is refreshing to speak with somebody who isn't scared of the other side's texts.    Though on the whole, the reactions seem to be as above.  Can you tell us why most christians refuse to take such a logical approach?

[Randy Carson]

1. If you don't mind, this is a very hostile forum, and I don't need to have my own personal experiences mocked by those who are not really in a position to understand. Sorry.

2. What I would suggest instead is that you ask, ask again, or continue to ask that God reveal Himself to you. He's been waiting for all eternity to do so.

1.  Hostile isn't necessarily the right word.  People here are just sick of the same old stuff, over and over ad nauseam.  Especially when those claims have no actual proof or evidence of any kind.

Then why do they bother to respond to the posts at all? There are plenty of other sub-forums for them to haunt. When I am sick of cheeseburgers, I don't go to McDonald's.

No, they aren't "sick of the same old stuff"...they are anti-Christian, and they want to vent because they are angry at God, the Catholic Church and Christianity, in general. This is evident because in the "Why Be Good?" thread, everyone is falling all over themselves trying to explain how good they are to others and so forth...except to the only Christian currently active in the thread.

The hypocrisy is obvious.

[Jenny A]

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Why do Catholic priests fetishize little boys? 

Are you referring to each and every Catholic priest on the planet? 

Or just the very tiny percentage which is actually lower than the number of pedophiles teaching at your local elementary schools?

 Citation please?

And any evidence that other teachers are actively covering it up?

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It appears that things just happen. God says “yes” to the things that are going to happen anyway, and the things that are likely to never happen or that are impossible to happen without a god, don’t. If you believe in prayer, maybe provide an example or two why you do.

If you don't mind, this is a very hostile forum, and I don't need to have my own personal experiences mocked by those who are not really in a position to understand. Sorry.

What I would suggest instead is that you ask, ask again, or continue to ask that God reveal Himself to you. He's been waiting for all eternity to do so.

Actually compared to the way most Christian or Islamic forums treat outsiders this forum is extraordinarily forgiving.  If I behaved as you do on a Catholic forum I'd have been banned long ago.   But you are quite right, if by mocking you mean asking factual, and rational questions, we're going to do that.

[Spooky]

1.  Hostile isn't necessarily the right word.  People here are just sick of the same old stuff, over and over ad nauseam.  Especially when those claims have no actual proof or evidence of any kind.

Then why do they bother to respond to the posts at all? There are plenty of other sub-forums for them to haunt. When I am sick of cheeseburgers, I don't go to McDonald's.

No, they aren't "sick of the same old stuff"...they are anti-Christian, and they want to vent because they are angry at God, the Catholic Church and Christianity, in general. This is evident because in the "Why Be Good?" thread, everyone is falling all over themselves trying to explain how good they are to others and so forth...except to the only Christian currently active in the thread.

The hypocrisy is obvious.

To "be angry at god" we'd generally have to believe in god.  And to be fair, I am very much "anti-christian", that is accurate.  As far as "being good"?  Atheists are vilified and compared to devil worshipers (even when they don't believe in the devil), so it is fairly natural to want to project our human/good side.

I believe the belief in your god causes more harm than good.  And there is plenty of evidence to prove it.  Can you make the same statement?  Does "lack of belief in god" do more harm than good?  Can you prove it?

[Randy Carson]

I wouldn't have a problem with that because it is useful to understand the arguments of the people you are trying to persuade.

Candidly, the LACK of references to books, articles and so forth has been one of the biggest surprises (and disappointments) of this forum. You are the first person that I can recall actually referencing a book since I joined three weeks ago. I'm used to discussions where people back up what they are saying with links, and quotes with sources, etc.

Perhaps you would be willing to read The God-less Delusion by Patrick Madrid? And there are other responses to Dawkins which may be even better than that one.

And for a good refresher on the Christian basics, I would suggest Luke and Acts...you can read them in a couple of evenings.

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The accidents of the bread remain.

It seems we're both surprised.  Most christians react as if their eyes would melt just looking at such books.  And likewise, I would not hesitate to read the 'The God-less delusion'.  If I find it for a good price on ebay, I may pick it up.  It will rest in the religion section of my library.  

It is refreshing to speak with somebody who isn't scared of the other side's texts.    Though on the whole, the reactions seem to be as above.  Can you tell us why most christians refuse to take such a logical approach?

Because, sadly, some Christians are guilty of all the things you accuse them of. They're judgmental, ignorant of the strong apologetics that they need to interact with atheists, and threatened by the "new atheism" which has an "in-your-face" aspect that turns a lot of people off.

You think its offensive that the 10 Commandments are posted in a courthouse or a classroom. We think it's offensive that a judge requires it to be removed (after xx number of years). You object to Nativity scenes and prayer before football games. We object to having our traditions taken away from us. You think it's unfair that you're being discriminated against but Christians don't want a court to order them to bake a cake or deliver flowers to a gay wedding because they consider gay marriage to be an offense to God. 

So, I know who Dawkins and Hitchens are. And while I've not read their books (I'm buried as it is) I've watched some online debates and listened to their arguments directly from their own mouths. 

I'm an amateur apologist...which might have all the crowd appeal of being a rock hound or an amateur astronomer when chatting at a cocktail party. But it's what I think God has called me to do, so I try to do the best I can, and reading good articles and books is essential.

BTW-I've only recently turned my attention to atheism after a decade or so of "Catholic" apologetics. "Christian" apologetics requires an entirely different approach and set of arguments, and the last three weeks here have been enormously educational. I'm learning and making course corrections quickly, and I hope to be able to provide you and your fellow forum mates a better challenge as I do.

So, perhaps The God Delusion would be a good read...I'll consider that after I've watched a couple of his debates on YouTube.

Thanks!

[Iroscato]

I think a lot of it is fuelled by seeing a wasted brain, myself. I experience a certain amount of frustration when I read about or interact with somebody who is unable to properly grapple with reality and must instead take comfort in fairy tales just to get by. This forum provides a place to vent that frustration.

[Randy Carson]

Are you referring to each and every Catholic priest on the planet? 

Or just the very tiny percentage which is actually lower than the number of pedophiles teaching at your local elementary schools?

Citation please?

And any evidence that other teachers are actively covering it up?

Lots.

See post #40 in this thread: http://atheistforums.org/post-944224.html#pid944224

My link above is going to take you to post #44, because I don't know exactly how the forum software works yet. Just scroll up for an interesting study complete with lots of footnotes from outside (non-Catholic) sources.

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[quote='Randy Carson' pid='954344' dateline='1432951032']
Actually compared to the way most Christian or Islamic forums treat outsiders this forum is extraordinarily forgiving.  If I behaved as you do on a Catholic forum I'd have been banned long ago.   But you are quite right, if by mocking you mean asking factual, and rational questions, we're going to do that.

I can't speak for "most" but after a decade at Catholic Answers, I think I can say with confidence that you and a very few others would have no problem there.

And no, asking good questions is not mocking.

C'mon...you see the stuff that some folks post...

[The Grand Nudger]

-and we see the things that you post.  Take responsibility for your interactions.  If you don't like the situation, then change it.

Or.......... bitch and moan like an impotent prick, your call.

[Randy Carson]

Then why do they bother to respond to the posts at all? There are plenty of other sub-forums for them to haunt. When I am sick of cheeseburgers, I don't go to McDonald's.

No, they aren't "sick of the same old stuff"...they are anti-Christian, and they want to vent because they are angry at God, the Catholic Church and Christianity, in general. This is evident because in the "Why Be Good?" thread, everyone is falling all over themselves trying to explain how good they are to others and so forth...except to the only Christian currently active in the thread.

The hypocrisy is obvious.

To "be angry at god" we'd generally have to believe in god.  

Agreed. Some call themselves "atheists" but strangely, they are very angry at a god who does not exist.

And to be fair, I am very much "anti-christian", that is accurate.  

Okay. Mind if I ask why?

As far as "being good"?  Atheists are vilified and compared to devil worshipers (even when they don't believe in the devil), so it is fairly natural to want to project our human/good side.

In order to worship the devil, you first have to believe in the supernatural. Atheists do not. What can I say? Some people are simply ignorant.

I believe the belief in your god causes more harm than good.  And there is plenty of evidence to prove it.  

What are you actively doing to bring about the end of religious superstition?

Can you make the same statement?  Does "lack of belief in god" do more harm than good?  Can you prove it?

Yes, but not in a sentence or two. It's late here...this has to wait until another time.

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-and we see the things that you post.  Take responsibility for your interactions.  If you don't like the situation, then change it.

Or.......... bitch and moan like an impotent prick, your call.

I do take responsibility for my actions and my posts.

Can you cite any in which I have used the kind of foul, abusive language that is constantly thrown at me...like you just did?  

Nope.

[Cyberman]

No, they aren't "sick of the same old stuff"...they are anti-Christian, and they want to vent because they are angry at God, the Catholic Church and Christianity, in general. This is evident because in the "Why Be Good?" thread, everyone is falling all over themselves trying to explain how good they are to others and so forth...except to the only Christian currently active in the thread.

The hypocrisy is obvious.