The ultimate question !

[Daystar]

I see, Adrian. Sorry. I didn't realize you were talking about the common theistic argument. No wonder it didn't make sense to me.

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How is it that you have come to the conclusion that because God is eternal he knows exactly what is going to happen, because the Bible certainly doesn't indicate that.

Are there not prophesies in the bible? I have seen other people talking about them (eg: psalm23 the recent new member has posted something about "end times").

There are prophecies in the Bible, but that doesn't imply that God knows every thing before it happens.

[Psalm 23]

That all depends on the definition of "sure" you use. I am "sure" in the context that I am certain God doesn't exist. This is very different to being "sure" in the context of knowing God doesn't exist. Hence my agnostic qualities.

I'm not sure that you can walk outside tonight and look into the midnight sky and say, "There is no God out there."

But please allow me me to stop you before you use the; "Invisible Pink Unicorn" arguement.

Until the day humankind recovers ancient text that reveal an invisible pink unicorn created the universe, and formed mankind from the dust of the earth.. then we can further discuss that topic. I think for now that arguement is flawed to the core, as I just explained.

[Daystar]

But please allow me me to stop you before you use the; "Invisible Pink Unicorn" arguement.

Until the day humankind recovers ancient text that reveal an invisible pink unicorn created the universe, and formed mankind from the dust of the earth.. then we can further discuss that topic. I think for now that arguement is flawed to the core, as I just explained.

Flying Spaghetti Monster is what is favored 'round here. These atheists love their FSM.

[Psalm 23]

Flying Spaghetti Monster is what is favored 'round here. These atheists love their FSM.

It's all the same. That became famous in the Atheist Vs. Theist debate, until Theists asked the Atheists to come forth with evidence of actual ancient documents of a Flying Spaghetti Monster or a Pink Unicorn. The Theists provide documents of ancient mankind speaking to God. These ancient documents are considered highly sacred. Atheists are using a "mythical character" invented for the atheist arguement. It falls short on the arguement of God's existence.

[leo-rcc]

. These ancient documents are considered highly sacred.

By those that believe it, can you get any more circular than that?

[Psalm 23]

. These ancient documents are considered highly sacred.

By those that believe it, can you get any more circular than that?

Yes, I guess so.. It would be unfair for me to tell a Muslim the New Testament is holier than the Qu'ran.

[Tiberius]

Flying Spaghetti Monster is what is favored 'round here. These atheists love their FSM.

It's all the same. That became famous in the Atheist Vs. Theist debate, until Theists asked the Atheists to come forth with evidence of actual ancient documents of a Flying Spaghetti Monster or a Pink Unicorn. The Theists provide documents of ancient mankind speaking to God. These ancient documents are considered highly sacred. Atheists are using a "mythical character" invented for the atheist arguement. It falls short on the arguement of God's existence.

Ahem. We have a living prophet of Pastafarianism (thats better that your religion), and we have a holy book (The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster), and we have several hundred sightings of the FSM is pieces of toast, walls, etc. There are even molecules that look like Him. Exactly how much evidence do you want?

Since when did age of a document add to its veracity anyway? If that logic worked, why do we not think the Earth is flat? Ancient documents claim that to be the truth! Theists are blinded by their religious texts, and they rarely question them.

[lukec]

Swish. 2 Points.

[chatpilot]

I understand Jesus' words in Luke 18:15-17

('15.And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.

16.But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

17.Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. ')


to mean that we can miss completely the 'truth' even if it is staring us in the face, because unlike a child (who is more trusting and not capable of philosophising and intellectualising things), we miss the obvious by becoming entrenched in arguments, paradoxes, philosophies etc. This is what is meant I think. A good example of this is where some people even doubt their own or anyone else's existence!!! In 1 Corinthians 13:11 Paul is referring to believers. They are required to study, check things, and not be ignorant, as you suggest Chatpilot.

In your words more trusting (faith without evidence) not capable of philosiphising etc. denotes blind acceptance (ignorance).Christians are required to study but it is to study the word of God.And be ready and prepared to defend it.
2 Timothy 2:15

15.Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Usually anything outside the word of God is not considered edifying.

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I have been an atheist for about 14 years and as the years go by and my knowledge on religious matters continue to grow I have become sure that God or gods do not exist.The one question that I have tried to answer is the one question that leaves religion in general without a satisfactory answer for the skeptic.

No one can be sure if God exists or not. That is an impossible task.

The question is:"If God created man,then who created God?"It's simple enough but upon further inspection it is a dead end.Lets see what the bible has to say to help answer this question.

God is eternal. He was not created or born. Here are some verses to help you understand God's eternal being;

"No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began."
1 Corinthians 2:7

"This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time."
2 Timothy 1:9

"The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time." Titus 1:2

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

That's right! God is telling John he is eternal. He has been here since the beginning, and he will continue to live after the end of time.

Using the scriptures as our guide does not give us much.We are supposed to believe on faith that the biblical God has manifested himself on Earth as God the father, the son,and as the holy spirit.The previous scripture says he is eternal the actual beginning.

The book of Isaiah in the Old Testament foretold the coming of a Messiah in Israel, and this Child's name shall be "Immanuel" meaning, "God is with us." In ancient Hebrew "El" is God, "Immanu" means, "With us." Jesus=God.

If we are to accept this then we must accept that God just somehow poofed himself into existence and later began his labor of 6 days of creation of which he was so tired in the end that he needed that 7th day to rest.If you ask me,everything that the bible states about God and his beginnings are absolutely rediculous,and make the so called Godly inspiration of the Bible more suspect then ever.I invite my fellow atheists and theists to try and come up with a better and more convincing argument for the origin of God.

You are not understanding what "rest" meant in ancient Hebrew. It meant, "To quit, to stop creating." It did not mean God was exhausted. You have been misinformed.

It is my honest opinion based on just pure study and observation of the worlds religions,that God was created first in the mind of mankind.Before you state that the above scripture was a referrence to Christ I will assure you that it is.But remember that Jesus was also called the Word and the bible states the following:
John 1:1-3 1 "In the beginning was the Word."

That is correct. Jesus was was considered, "The Word" in the New Testament.

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, The Word, and The Holy Ghost, and these Three are One." - 1 John 5:7

I dont take the so called prophecies of the messiah or the coming of Jesus seriously.If this Jesus existed all he did in the N.T. was try to fulfill all those things that were supposed to be stated about him in the O.T.Nothing new crackpots have been doing that for years.

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Once again I state with certainty that God does not exist.The fact that there is a version or versions of God or gods all over the world since man developed a brain stem and became curious of his origins indicates to me that God was an invention of man to describe those things he did not understand.God like Santa Clause only exists in the minds and hearts of those who are too afraid to accept that they are not Gods "special creation",or that they will die one day and it will be over and that there is no heaven.You dont need a belief in a folktale to be happy in this life once you accept your mortality and make the most of your life while you have it.

[allan175]

I see, Adrian. Sorry. I didn't realize you were talking about the common theistic argument. No wonder it didn't make sense to me.

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How is it that you have come to the conclusion that because God is eternal he knows exactly what is going to happen, because the Bible certainly doesn't indicate that.

Are there not prophesies in the bible? I have seen other people talking about them (eg: psalm23 the recent new member has posted something about "end times").

There are prophecies in the Bible, but that doesn't imply that God knows every thing before it happens.

What does it imply then? As far as I can see if someone is saying something will happen then they know it's going to happen.

What is your alternative explanation?