The ultimate question !

[chatpilot]

I have been an atheist for about 14 years and as the years go by and my knowledge on religious matters continue to grow I have become sure that God or gods do not exist.The one question that I have tried to answer is the one question that leaves religion in general without a satisfactory answer for the skeptic.

The question is:"If God created man,then who created God?"It's simple enough but upon further inspection it is a dead end.Lets see what the bible has to say to help answer this question.

According to Revelations 1:7,8
7.Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8.I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Using the scriptures as our guide does not give us much.We are supposed to believe on faith that the biblical God has manifested himself on Earth as God the father, the son,and as the holy spirit.The previous scripture says he is eternal the actual beginning.

If we are to accept this then we must accept that God just somehow poofed himself into existence and later began his labor of 6 days of creation of which he was so tired in the end that he needed that 7th day to rest.If you ask me,everything that the bible states about God and his beginnings are absolutely rediculous,and make the so called Godly inspiration of the Bible more suspect then ever.I invite my fellow atheists and theists to try and come up with a better and more convincing argument for the origin of God.

It is my honest opinion based on just pure study and observation of the worlds religions,that God was created first in the mind of mankind.Before you state that the above scripture was a referrence to Christ I will assure you that it is.But remember that Jesus was also called the Word and the bible states the following:
John 1:1-3

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

According to these verses we are speaking of one and the same entity.

[Tiberius]

The only explanation theists give is that God is eternal, living outside of time. However, this also means that prayer is ineffective, since God already knows exactly what is going to happen (it can see all of time).

[CoxRox]

Maybe I am so gullible and silly (and unscientifically minded) that I view the question: 'Who made God?' as meaningless as asking:'Why does 2 plus 2 have to always equal 4?' God by His very nature MUST be immortal with no beginning otherwise he wouldn't be God so for me the question is invalid although I will try to tell you why. (By the way, some atheists or is it materialists,don't recognise the question: 'WHY do we exist?' They would say: there is no 'why' just as I would say 'God' and 'Beginning' can't be related: e.g 2+2=5 (or God + Time = Beginning) although this looks like an equation, it contains correct symbols etc, the answer is incorrect and so the equation is meaningless. My examples may be a load of crap so forgive me if they are. I'm trying to use analogies.

I have often thought about this question and talked about it. Here are some things I ponder when thinking of your question:

1. Has matter/energy always existed? If yes, then why is ITS immortality any harder to grasp or accept than a God's? (By the way, is it true that you can't get rid of matter? It breaks down into energy which is still there???)
2. If matter had a beginning it is either via a Creator, or it came into being spontaneously: 'out of thin air' at the Big Bang. If it came into being out of 'thin air' (which I can't even grasp the notion of that)- then this kind of reasoning would allow for 'anything' really!!

3. If matter (namely energy) is derived from an eternal Being (via the Holy Spirit), this Being or Force that holds everything together (via the laws of physics, etc) surely MUST be immortal with no beginning otherwise we are back to believing that it came out of 'nothing' from 'nothing'.

Matter with no beginning or God with no beginning? Hmmmmmmm..
I know you will say that believing matter has always existed is a simpler explanation to an immortal supernatural being and therefore more probable. This still allows for immortality or not having a beginning.

I do not get the silly impression that God made everything in six literal days and then got tired. That is ridiculous. (Time periods in the bible can be figurative and represent periods of time. The 'evening' 'morning' and 'day' references are to divide the periods- we know that life emerged in stages but interestingly in the SAME ORDER as Genesis very simply relates, and of course geology etc confirms that the days can't possibly be literal but represent thousands or millions of years.) Another scripture says that God always works and never rests. (John 5:17) . The 'rest' that is mentioned in Genesis has a spiritual meaning for God, but resulted in both spiritual and physical rest for us (The Sabbath previously and the future 'New Heavens and New Earth' time period). The Bible anthropomorphises God and puts Him into terms that we can relate to (I think anyway): God (Jehovah) the Father, Jesus is the Son (He is not the Father but a separate person, but shares the Father's divine nature) and the Holy Spirit is a force if you like (God's power/energy that accomplishes things. I don't think it's a person). Using words like 'son' and 'father' may well be other examples of anthropomorphism to help us understand better.

Anyway, I'm sure you will pick holes and try to demolish my 'reasonings'. If they are faulty I am prepared to be corrected....

---

The only explanation theists give is that God is eternal, living outside of time. However, this also means that prayer is ineffective, since God already knows exactly what is going to happen (it can see all of time).

Adrian, we pray because we are IN time well and truly. The fact that God knows what I will pray for does in no way negate the 'need' or the reason for which I pray. Just as we cannot comprehend something not having a beginning, we cannot comprehend being outside of time of which God must be if He has no beginning. I can't comprehend a 'time' when time didn't exist (isn't that what scientists believe?). I'd liken this to trying to explain to someone born blind what a colour is.......

[chatpilot]

1 Corinthians 13:11,12 states....

11.When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12.For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

According to this scripture,until we are resurrected and in the presence of god for eternity we will not fully know or understand such mysteries as the origins of the universe,life,matter etc.In my view this is yet another cop out answer to a question whose answer still eludes us.I do not claim to know the actual origins of the universe,matter,or life itself but I do think that natural selection and the big bang are more plausible explanations than a supernatural eternal being that was is and forever will be.

The phenomenon of religion world wide and throughout the ages is nothing more than another one of mans speculation on such questions as those mentioned above.No research is involved only mere speculation and the invention of gods to explain to the satisfaction of primitive man those things which even now in part remain a mystery.Since we dont have a beginning piont I am not a fan of infinite regress because I refuse to believe that at the end of the line that starting point was god.Maybe in the future during or after our own lifetimes science will discover a plausible explanation for the beginning of everything as we know it.But in my view religion is not the answer, the whole "if you cant explain it god did it" does not fly with me nor does it convince me otherwise.

Verse 11 states "when I became a man I put away childish things",in my opinion the belief in a deity as the explanation for something so important is childish and indeed primitive thinking.It's ironic that according to the scriptures Jesus agreed with me.

Luke 18:15-17

15.And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.

16.But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

17.Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

In other words unless you come to the lord as a child (innocent/ignorant) you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

[CoxRox]

I understand Jesus' words in Luke 18:15-17

('15.And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.

16.But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

17.Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. ')


to mean that we can miss completely the 'truth' even if it is staring us in the face, because unlike a child (who is more trusting and not capable of philosophising and intellectualising things), we miss the obvious by becoming entrenched in arguments, paradoxes, philosophies etc. This is what is meant I think. A good example of this is where some people even doubt their own or anyone else's existence!!! In 1 Corinthians 13:11 Paul is referring to believers. They are required to study, check things, and not be ignorant, as you suggest Chatpilot.

[bozo]

Maybe I am so gullible and silly (and unscientifically minded) that I view the question: 'Who made God?' as meaningless as asking:'Why does 2 plus 2 have to always equal 4?' God by His very nature MUST be immortal with no beginning otherwise he wouldn't be God so for me the question is invalid although I will try to tell you why. (By the way, some atheists or is it materialists,don't recognise the question: 'WHY do we exist?' They would say: there is no 'why' just as I would say 'God' and 'Beginning' can't be related: e.g 2+2=5 (or God + Time = Beginning) although this looks like an equation, it contains correct symbols etc, the answer is incorrect and so the equation is meaningless. My examples may be a load of crap so forgive me if they are. I'm trying to use analogies.

I have often thought about this question and talked about it. Here are some things I ponder when thinking of your question:

1. Has matter/energy always existed? If yes, then why is ITS immortality any harder to grasp or accept than a God's? (By the way, is it true that you can't get rid of matter? It breaks down into energy which is still there???)
2. If matter had a beginning it is either via a Creator, or it came into being spontaneously: 'out of thin air' at the Big Bang. If it came into being out of 'thin air' (which I can't even grasp the notion of that)- then this kind of reasoning would allow for 'anything' really!!

3. If matter (namely energy) is derived from an eternal Being (via the Holy Spirit), this Being or Force that holds everything together (via the laws of physics, etc) surely MUST be immortal with no beginning otherwise we are back to believing that it came out of 'nothing' from 'nothing'.

Matter with no beginning or God with no beginning? Hmmmmmmm..
I know you will say that believing matter has always existed is a simpler explanation to an immortal supernatural being and therefore more probable. This still allows for immortality or not having a beginning.

I do not get the silly impression that God made everything in six literal days and then got tired. That is ridiculous. (Time periods in the bible can be figurative and represent periods of time. The 'evening' 'morning' and 'day' references are to divide the periods- we know that life emerged in stages but interestingly in the SAME ORDER as Genesis very simply relates, and of course geology etc confirms that the days can't possibly be literal but represent thousands or millions of years.) Another scripture says that God always works and never rests. (John 5:17) . The 'rest' that is mentioned in Genesis has a spiritual meaning for God, but resulted in both spiritual and physical rest for us (The Sabbath previously and the future 'New Heavens and New Earth' time period). The Bible anthropomorphises God and puts Him into terms that we can relate to (I think anyway): God (Jehovah) the Father, Jesus is the Son (He is not the Father but a separate person, but shares the Father's divine nature) and the Holy Spirit is a force if you like (God's power/energy that accomplishes things. I don't think it's a person). Using words like 'son' and 'father' may well be other examples of anthropomorphism to help us understand better.

Anyway, I'm sure you will pick holes and try to demolish my 'reasonings'. If they are faulty I am prepared to be corrected....

---

The only explanation theists give is that God is eternal, living outside of time. However, this also means that prayer is ineffective, since God already knows exactly what is going to happen (it can see all of time).

Adrian, we pray because we are IN time well and truly. The fact that God knows what I will pray for does in no way negate the 'need' or the reason for which I pray. Just as we cannot comprehend something not having a beginning, we cannot comprehend being outside of time of which God must be if He has no beginning. I can't comprehend a 'time' when time didn't exist (isn't that what scientists believe?). I'd liken this to trying to explain to someone born blind what a colour is.......

CR,what is this prayer thing all about? Does your god grant everything that's prayed for? I doubt it! And if not, why not? How does your god decide?
And what about " god's will "? This isuse, as far as I can tell, by believers to explain why prayers go unanswered.
You are probably aware of the test of prayer that the Templeton Institute carried out on sick people, as reported in " The God Delusion "....outcome? It don't work!

[CoxRox]

Bozo, I admit that prayers don't seem to get answered very often, if at all. I hardly ever pray as it feels 'strange'. My prayers mainly consist of me thanking God for everything I have. I don't think He openly intervenes much in this world (it has to run its course). I would agree that He isn't 'big' on the 'major' miracles these days (or so it seems). I can't speak for others, but many times I've prayed about things and they've worked out for the best. That could be coincidence. I'm aware of that. I'm also aware God may not be real. As I said, I don't pray all that often. I understand what you are saying and yes I've read 'the God Delusion'. I don't think it is possible to really test something as (supposedly)supernatural as prayer.

[Tiberius]

we know that life emerged in stages but interestingly in the SAME ORDER as Genesis very simply relates

This struck me as a rather silly statement. According to Genesis:

Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky

then

Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind

Now the problem with this is that we know that land animals came after water dwelling animals, and then birds came after land animals. It seems to me that the Genesis account is in error here...

[bozo]

Bozo, I admit that prayers don't seem to get answered very often, if at all. I hardly ever pray as it feels 'strange'. My prayers mainly consist of me thanking God for everything I have. I don't think He openly intervenes much in this world (it has to run its course). I would agree that He isn't 'big' on the 'major' miracles these days (or so it seems). I can't speak for others, but many times I've prayed about things and they've worked out for the best. That could be coincidence. I'm aware of that. I'm also aware God may not be real. As I said, I don't pray all that often. I understand what you are saying and yes I've read 'the God Delusion'. I don't think it is possible to really test something as (supposedly)supernatural as prayer.

Sorry CR, " he " doesn't intervene cause " he " almost certainly doesn't exist!

[CoxRox]

we know that life emerged in stages but interestingly in the SAME ORDER as Genesis very simply relates

This struck me as a rather silly statement. According to Genesis:

Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky

then

Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind

Now the problem with this is that we know that land animals came after water dwelling animals, and then birds came after land animals. It seems to me that the Genesis account is in error here...

Ok you have a point here. I will look into this. I didn't know that about the birds. I've yet to read up on the fossil record from a non Christian perspective. I will though.