Why be good?

[Randy Carson]

Just curious. Most people find the idea that Jesus reveals God's love to be a good thing.

Yeah, because eternal punishment for finite crimes, shows so much love.

Finite crimes against an infinite God are not so finite. Punishment shows justice.

[Dystopia]

Yeah, because eternal punishment for finite crimes, shows so much love.

Finite crimes against an infinite God are not so finite. Punishment shows justice.

That is only true if you accept that justice is about retribution.

[Pyrrho]

...

You either tell children about hell or you don't.  If you do, it is frightening to them.  So are you saying that children should not be told about hell?

Sex frightens children, too. Especially the girls. THINK about what happens to them. Until they are ready for it, well, they aren't ready for it, okay? That's why parents normally EASE into the full truth over the course of several years as the kids are old enough to handle it.

Hell can be explained when it is appropriate to do so.

I should have expected you to evade the question, given how you have been ignoring it for so long.

Losty is right.  Sex is not frightening, or should not be. Children are curious about it, and often ask about it, except when their elders react badly to such questions.  So you are giving a false analogy.

If you think sex is comparable to hell for a woman, you must be doing something terribly wrong when you have sex.

[Cyberman]

Finite crimes against an infinite God are not so finite. Punishment shows justice.

Finite crimes against an infinte anything equalise to zero. Punishment shows incredible spite.

[Losty]

Just curious. Most people find the idea that Jesus reveals God's love to be a good thing.

I must have missed that part  

It doesn't really matter if it's significant to you. It's significant to those who attend these churches and especially significant to those who have suffered at the hands of believers in these churches. Just because you think that your church is the one true church doesn't mean that all these other churches aren't out there. Just because in your personal experience you haven't seen abuses in churches doesn't mean they don't happen even in Catholic Churches. To pretend like it's untrue is just as bad as to participate in it IMO.

"To pretend...is just as bad." Hmmm...we don't throw pretenders in jail...just perpetrators. But whatever.

There are sinners in every Church because...get this...we are all sinners. And sometimes sinners do bad things...even in Church. I guess that makes God "look bad" somehow, but it says more about us than it does about Him.

What are you even talking about?
If you will recall I wasn't talking about god I was talking about you. You reacted to Esquilax's post as if bad things never happen in churches. I was telling you that you are either blind or lying if you think they don't. I don't believe in sin or god. I can't really make a judgment on whether or not it is good unless you specifically define it for me. The god character of the bible is quite obviously the villain.

Those are big questions. Let me think about them for awhile. Answering too quickly would not do them justice.

Take your time, I'm not in a hurry

However, the idea of sperm and eggs and fallopian tubes, etc., is a bit removed from, "He's going to lie on top of you and put his..." Well, you know the rest.

I see no reason why that part should be scary, but I didn't explain it like that. We looked up reproduction on my phone and she saw the pictures. I never thought to say he's going to lay on top of you... Seems like something she and mystery man (hopefully at least 10-15 years from now) will decide on there own. Who am I to tell my daughter what position she will have sex in? Nah that part she will decide for herself.

[emjay]

@Randy
Hi. Just a quick question. Is the sort of hell you're talking about similar to what CS Lewis writes about in I think "The Problem of Pain", and imaginatively portrays in "The Great Divorce"? And if so is that just your take on it or that of the whole Catholic Church? Just curious.

I regret that I have not read those two...I own them...just haven't gotten to them, yet. My apologies.

if you want to elaborate, perhaps we can go forward.

Never mind - I think you've answered everything I wanted to know in your reply to Jenny A. Thanks anyway if you were going to reply. But I need to go to bed now.

[Jenny A]

Your description of hell as separation from god (despite mentions of hellfire) in various places.  

Before I forget...there is nothing "extra-biblical" about Purgatory...there are lots of verses that refer to Purgatory - though the word itself (like "trinity") does not appear.

But as for your request, here is one passage:

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Randy?  Did you understand the question?  What makes you think eternal punishment is only separation from god?  See the text I have pinked?  What does it mean if not eternal fire?

By the way, this passage also suggests that the path to heaven is good works not belief in god.

[Randy Carson]

...


Sex frightens children, too. Especially the girls. THINK about what happens to them. Until they are ready for it, well, they aren't ready for it, okay? That's why parents normally EASE into the full truth over the course of several years as the kids are old enough to handle it.

Hell can be explained when it is appropriate to do so.

I should have expected you to evade the question, given how you have been ignoring it for so long.

Losty is right.  Sex is not frightening, or should not be. Children are curious about it, and often ask about it, except when their elders react badly to such questions.  So you are giving a false analogy.

If you think sex is comparable to hell for a woman, you must be doing something terribly wrong when you have sex.

LOL. 

Okay, kid. I'm sure you've gotten laid a time or two. You may have even been sober enough to remember it.

But I was not comparing sex to hell. I was saying that lots of things are scary to small children - hell and sex can both be scary at inappropriate ages. If some parents try to scare their kids into behaving with threats of hell or the boogey man or whatever, that's bad parenting. It's not bad theology.

Try to grasp the big concepts here, okay?

---

Before I forget...there is nothing "extra-biblical" about Purgatory...there are lots of verses that refer to Purgatory - though the word itself (like "trinity") does not appear.

But as for your request, here is one passage:

Matthew 25
31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’ 41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ 46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Randy?  Did you understand the question?  What makes you think eternal punishment is only separation from god?  See the text I have pinked?  What does it mean if not eternal fire?

By the way, this passage also suggests that the path to heaven is good works not belief in god.

Jenny-

Given your beliefs, what I'm about to say next may blow your mind...and you can do whatever you want with it, okay?

There are saints to whom God has revealed things about heaven, hell, and purgatory. The souls in purgatory (and hell) ARE suffering the effects of fire (whether this is literal or figurative is less certain). The joke is that purgatory and hell share the same heating system. Kinda funny...until you think about it.

Anyway, the souls in Purgatory who have been permitted to ask the living saints for prayers, masses, etc., have reported that the separation from God and the regret for lost opportunities in this life are GREATER sources of torment than the actual flames themselves.

And, btw, the souls in hell are also tormented by the fallen angels or demons.

Now, the writings of these saints are available in books. But you have other things to occupy your time, so no need to consider any of this, right?

[Simon Moon]

Finite crimes against an infinite God are not so finite. Punishment shows justice.

Statements like this just go to show how evil Christianity really is. 

It has caused you to lose you moral compass and sacrifice your humanity, and believe you are moral.

Let me ask you this. According to you, if I died right now as an atheist, I would be punished for eternity for a thought crime.

Do you think I deserve it?

[The Valkyrie]

Yeah, because eternal punishment for finite crimes, shows so much love.

Finite crimes against an infinite God are not so finite. Punishment shows justice.

Finite crimes against non existent beings are finite